The 4 handed vs the 2 handed game

[the hog]

On a number of occassions in the past I have made mention of the 4 handed vs the 2 handed game. Some people have asked me to clarify this statement.

 

There are generally two distinct styles/aproaches to bidding, four handed and two handed. Often these are due to the environment in which you play:

 

others in your area/country play the same style

local/national regulations

national history/characteristics - We have always played this way.

 

Sometimes there are other factors involved:

 

partnership agreement

what you feel comfortable with

systemic considerations

 

The difference between the 2 styles is pretty much that the 2 handed players believe in presenting as accurate a picture as possible to their partners, largely ignoring the opposition. 4 handed players, on the other hand, believe in making life as difficult as possible for their opponents sometimes even misleading their own partners in the process.

 

A 2 handed player:

Rarely psyches

Rarely makes sting cues

Is very consistent in showing values

Will always have her bid eg solid pre empts etc

Are easier to play against and easier to play with

Does not really approve of destructive methods

 

Obviously 4 handed players follow the opposite tenets to the above.

Ben and Misho, for example, are definitely 4 handed players.

 

The above is not to say that one style is better than than the other. There are world class players of both styles. Sometimes national characteristics play a part eg the French and US players are in general far more conservative and sound in their approach than players from the Asian regions. It is no surprise that Roth Stone was developed in the US, for example and Moscito in Australia.

 

Two handed players will not generally go for large numbers, 4 handed players sometimes will. 4 handed players are in general far more difficult to play against with their philosophy of get in and get out as quickly as possible.

 

There are exceptions of course; in a previous post I mentioned Marty Bergen, a 4 handed player par excellence. Polish Club is in principle a fairly conservative system, based on sound openings, yet many of the strong pass systems originated in Poland.

 

You pays your money, you makes your choice.

 

Ron

[EricK]

I would add that 4 handed players will try to play a system which is difficult for the opponents to mess up.

 

It is quite easy to invent incredibly accurate systems on the assumption that opponents aren't going to bid. But these systems invariably end up opening a large number of hands with a fairly non-descript 1♣ and 1♦ (leaving maximum room for both sides to describe their hands). If these are tried at the table, clever opponents will bid aggressively over these low openings and you'll never get to use your fancy descriptive bids anyway.

 

Eric

[Dwayne]

Those who are interested in reading more about the four-handed game and its place in, particularly, in US and Italian bridge should read "Fair Play or Foul? - Cheating Scandals in Bridge" by Cathy Chua (Pioneer Books, 1997) assuming its still in print.

 

Dwayne-oh

[Flame]

both styles are good, but i find many people who try to be 4 handed before then know how to be 2 handed, this lead to bad and short partnerships.

[MickyB]

Obviously if you can cause more problems for the opps that for your partner by preempting wildly, psyching, etc, then it is worth doing. To me the term 'two-handed players' implies that they don't recognise this, which is wrong; They just feel the losses are bigger than the gains.

[Fluffy]

I am obviously 2 handed, it has a clear reason easy to unnderstand:

 

In Spain there aren´t many big pairs, when I play a torney I nomrally play a field weaker than me, that means I am quite happy they know what I have, since they will hardly get anything from it, and further more, none of the profesionals here really want the field to become so agressive, since we are very in comfort when everybody makes sound calls, and our betters skills will normally translate in good results.

 

On the other hand when I was younger, I wasn´t better than the field, and was so happy about being 4 handed hehe, I was a quite crazy guy making crazy preemts all around and psychs, the reason: I achieved more succes with this methods.

[inquiry]

I think you have to plan for both types of games. After partner is a passed hand, I think even most 2 handed players will get creative with his preemtive bids in third seat. I say this knowing full well that Henri (ritong) 3rd hand preempts are as sound as his first and second seat preempts.

 

Ron suggested that Misho and I are 4 handed players. To a large degree that is true. We open light, our 2 bids are meant to be disruptive (not as much as Richard with his Freeling 2 bids, but disruptive just the same). We have designed out system and agreements with heavy emphasis on what to do in competition, and we assume competitive auctions will start (potentially competitive auctions) and have designed bids to counter the competitve bids before they occur. All our direct raises are weak. And we have auctions where garrazzo 2/3 doubles apply by default.

 

On the other hand, we also have some very descriptive two handed auctions, and when we are vulnerable and opponents are not, we are very much two handed bidders, or at least less three handed bidders. So I would like to think we are a hybrid between the two.

 

Ron also suggested that four hand bidders frequently go for huge numbers. Well, misho and I since may 4th have played 569 hand on the BBO. We have gone for more than 500 points in a doubled contract exactly twice, and both had little to do with four handed players versus two handed ones. Once was in 5Dxx which was this thing....

 

[hv=d=w&v=a&n=sth5daq8743cj7432&w=sa87643ht3d9caqt6&e=sj5haqj8742dj62c9&s=skq92hk96dkt5ck85]399|300|Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 

 2♠    3♦    3♥    3NT

 Pass  5♦    Dbl   RDbl

 Pass  Pass  Pass  [/hv]

 

And the other was against Free and hgorthar where we had a bidding misunderstanding against moscito...Over the transfer opening bid, I played cue-bid of their transfer suit as takeout of spades, partner (with six spades) took me for having spades. This one should have been easily avoided. My partner didn't notice 1H had been alerted and assumed 1H to be natural, which caused the problem here.

 

[hv=d=w&v=a&n=sth5daq8743cj7432&w=sa87643ht3d9caqt6&e=sj5haqj8742dj62c9&s=skq92hk96dkt5ck85]399|300|Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 

 2♠    3♦    3♥    3NT

 Pass  5♦    Dbl   RDbl

 Pass  Pass  Pass  [/hv]

[the hog]

"Ron also suggested that four hand bidders frequently go for huge numbers"

 

Actually I said "sometimes". It doesn't happen as often as it should, as you can pick your mark or the opponents simply don't have the methods to penalise or don't know thenselves quite what is going on. Good for me because I play this style as well. :rolleyes:

[Flame]

Let me ask you 4 handed a simple question, your partner push to 5c over opponents 4M and you get -800.

His 5c is wrong on total tricks but he felt they will be pushed to 5M.

Do you just say ok thats just fine , or do you argue over it (even if not during the turnament), even if you dont have a fight over it, do you feel bad about it? do treat it as a mistake by him, or just bad luck ?

[the hog]

Let me ask you 4 handed a simple question, your partner push to 5c over opponents 4M and you get -800.

His 5c is wrong on total tricks but he felt they will be pushed to 5M.

Do you just say ok thats just fine , or do you argue over it (even if not during the turnament), even if you dont have a fight over it, do you feel bad about it? do treat it as a mistake by him, or just bad luck ?

Well I don't think he woud do it unless he picked his mark, as is the case here. If it happened, tough. No argument. I've gone for sticks and stones before, (1100), and will no doubt do so again.

 

Being a 4 handed player means getting in early, Flame, eg light openers, light pre empts, pressure bids etc.not making decisions at the 5 level. A 4 handed player will rarely act as you describe in your post - sounds more like a 1 handed player, :rolleyes: .

[inquiry]

Well I don't think he woud do it unless he picked his mark, as is the case here. If it happened, tough. No argument. I've gone for sticks and stones before, (1100), and will no doubt do so again.

Since May 4, you ahve only gone for -1400 and -800 once each.. everything else is less. and the -1400 was a 7D save over a vulnerable 6S... not much of a savings, but there you go....

 

Ben

[the hog]

Gack, you know more about my results than I do.

[luke warm]

Let me ask you 4 handed a simple question, your partner push to 5c over opponents 4M and you get -800.

His 5c is wrong on total tricks but he felt they will be pushed to 5M.

Do you just say ok thats just fine , or do you argue over it (even if not during the turnament), even if you dont have a fight over it, do you feel bad about it? do treat it as a mistake by him, or just bad luck ?

my thinking has always been simple on this... i always assumed that partner has bid or played in a way that seemed right to her at the time... i always assumed we were on the same team, and both would rather win than lose... so if she or i went for a zip code, we just dealt another

 

it's yust a game :rolleyes: ... oh, and one more thing... never ever EVER would i result or reprimand or criticize, etc, in public... if there are errors on either side, they get ironed out later, not in front of the enemy

 

as for 2 vs. 4 handed, my philosophy has always been on the aggresive side, but i'm not too sure how this canape system is gonna change that... we'll see

[Flame]

Im 3 handed player, i dont mind an agresive system, i would agree to play 7 hcp oepnings, and would enjoy it, but i am a disiplent player, if i dont have my bid i dont make it.

psyching is something that fasinate me, but i dont think my partnership would handle it well, and by that i mean not only get good results, but also to feel and know we didnt cheat, if for example i would feel i knew this could be psych i wont like it.

I wanted to by a book about psychs but it is out of print.

[EricK]

Let me ask you 4 handed a simple question, your partner push to 5c over opponents 4M and you get -800.

His 5c is wrong on total tricks but he felt they will be pushed to 5M.

Do you just say ok thats just fine , or do you argue over it (even if not during the turnament), even if you dont have a fight over it, do you feel bad about it? do treat it as a mistake by him, or just bad luck ?

There's (much) more to 5 level bidding than LOTT!

 

But if my partner made an "incorrect" bid because he felt that against these opponents in this situation it would lead to a better result, then of course I wouldn't treat it as a mistake (unless he has grossly misread the opposition or the situation!)

 

This is not really a 2-handed/4-handed question, though. I think 4 handed play is more concerned with preparing to deal with any opposition, not with the particualr pyschology of the current opposition (which is another important skill).

 

Eric

[MickyB]

I wanted to by a book about psychs but it is out of print.

I only know of one such book, The Art of Psyching by Pottage+Burrows. I think the general opinion is that it is disappointing - A lot of the psyches are wired and it doesn't really teach you when it is best to psyche. Are there any other books on the topic?

[helium]

Well I don't think he woud do it unless he picked his mark, as is the case here. If it happened, tough. No argument. I've gone for sticks and stones before, (1100), and will no doubt do so again.

Since May 4, you ahve only gone for -1400 and -800 once each.. everything else is less. and the -1400 was a 7D save over a vulnerable 6S... not much of a savings, but there you go....

 

Ben

how do u know that?

And ben can u please make ur pint in shorter posts? i find ur post interessting but they are sooooo long that i dont read them anymore. and its sad becouse you have some good points one in a while :rolleyes:

so my prayer for u is pls ceep it short, it seem like they are getting loonger every day:))

 

 

kenneth

[inquiry]

Short post comming.

 

How I do that? I use Bridgebrowser... see it at

http://www.microtopia.net/bridge/

 

Badically, I search for all hand The Hog played during a time range (may 4 to sept 30), and then in a spreadsheet format, I sort by score on the hand, and look through the -800 and larger hands. The hog had only played 364 hands during this time range in the main room and in tournments and team game, so this was very quick.

[helium]

lol well not that short:)) hehehe

[Chamaco]

Short post comming.

 

How I do that? I use Bridgebrowser... see it at

http://www.microtopia.net/bridge/

Hey Ben,

can you tell me what kind of studies a bridge student is most likely to *actually* perform with BridgeBrowser ?

 

I looked at the web page, and like any good advertising page, it states you can do this and this and that, but we all know that many of the functionalities listed in any software advertisement are rarely used or are close to useless;

(often in software advertisements the situation is like if you are looking to purchase a kitchen and the advertisments states "You know ? with our kitchen you can take pictures, change your tires, and, under the right conditions, you might even cook!" :rolleyes: )

so it is hard to sort out which ones are the real, substantial functionalities which make the purchase worthwhile.

 

 

so the question is: in REAL WORLD, EVERYDAY's activity, what are the main functions you use, why, and what is a benefit for a non-expert ?

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

ADDENDUM

 

Is there an analogy with the sort of studies you can perform with chess database ?

I mean, in chess you may use a DB to study openings, typical manoeuvres and tactics based on recurring patterns, and typivcal endgames.

 

Is it possible to do a smiliar thing in bridge ?

What kind of thematic analyses can be done in terms of:

-bidding

-opening leads

-dummy play

-defense

?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Thanks ! :lol:

[inquiry]

Sorry kenneth, this one is not short.. quick summary, I love bridgebrowser.. so you can skip the rest.

 

Well, what can you do with Bridgebrowser... I probably have only scratched the surface, but let me highlight a few things.

 

1) You can look up all the hands you (or anyone else) have played within the set of data you purchase. That is easy.

 

2) You can look up all the hands you played with one particular partner, or any subset of partners.

 

3) You can look up all hands you played against a specific oppoent, or a specific subset of opponents.

 

4) You can find out your average MP and imp results by time range, by partner, by contract, by offense or defense, by all hands played.

 

5) You can find all hands you open 1NT, or 1C, or 1H... you can find all hands you open any bid and your patner makes a specific response (you can even find all hands where with opener's or responders rebids)... Every wonder how well your multi-2D opening bids are doing, piece of cake.

 

6) Like a chess opening database, you can forget lookng gor all your hands (or all mine), and you can search for all auctions that start 1H-(1S)-2D-(P)-3D for instance.. and you can put requirements on thiese bids, say opnenr has to have exaclty five hearts to AQJ or a minimum of 5H to what ever card you want, and a specfic number of hcp (say 11 to 15).

 

7) You can search for hands by shape, hcp, etc. So for insttance you could check to see how opening 1NT with 4441 with a small singleton does... or 4441 with a singleton K or Q.

 

8) You can also check defensive bidding, when you overcall or use takeout double. i used this to confirm that misho's meta overcalls work very well against opening preempts.

 

9) You can look at all the other plays on the hands and how the results look. Right now Bridgebroswer online has nealrly 3 million tourment/team game hands and almost 6 million main room hands. This isn't 9 million unique deals, for instance, each main room deal is played exactly 16 times. So it would take 16 million total hands there to have a million unique deals..but you can find hundreds of any example without any trouble... For instance when the cue-bidding issue came up where I like to play disciplined splinters in GF situations, I searched for hands that started 1S-2H- where opener had 3 to 5 card heart support and a minor singleton or void to confirm that the approach I use keeps me confortable. I also use it to examine hand to see which auction is the best approach.....

 

I can strongly recommend this program to anyone who wants to study bidding in the fashion similar ot chess openings. (Disclaimer, I am a friend of the program's author).

 

The play issue is a little more complicated. There you have to look at the hands and decide for yourself in most cases... I use it study play, but that is more time consuming.

 

Also, unless yhou have a VERY FAST internet connection, I recommend the program on CD ROM instead of the online version,... for plain fun, the data can be from okbridge or bridgebase... (I prefer the bridgebase data cause not only are my hands included, but my friends as well).

 

Here is a little info for you. In tourments and team games, you have played 30 hands with O S H, and 19 with southwind (these are the most).... In the main room you have played 509 hands, the most with pacci (89) and a player named 42, who oddly enough, you have played 41 hands with you. Of interest maybe, to readers here, you have also played with free (9) and mcphee (11).. Oddly, we haven't played together yet.. we really need to remedy that. BTW, of these 589 hands, you specificallly opened 1C (26), 1D (33), 1H (15), 1S (27) and 1NT (16) times. Of the 16 1NT hands, four had 15 hcp, five had 16 hcp, five had 17 hcp, and one had 18 hcp.. the final one, playing with O. S. H. had 12 hcp with 4-4 in majors.

 

Note hands played in private and public rooms, like BIL Lounge, are NOT included in the database.

 

Ben

[1eyedjack]

There are some systems that have a combination of 4-handedness and 2-handedness.

 

Moscito, for example (of which I am no expert, so Hrothgar/Free will probably correct me) has taken the conscious decision to lump all strong openings into a 2-handed 1C opener, in the interests of making the other opening bids more 4-handed.

[the hog]

There are some systems that have a combination of 4-handedness and 2-handedness.

 

Moscito, for example (of which I am no expert, so Hrothgar/Free will probably correct me) has taken the conscious decision to lump all strong openings into a 2-handed 1C opener, in the interests of making the other opening bids more 4-handed.

That is an interesting comment and I have not thought of it in that way, but "yes", I think this is an accurate assessment.

[helium]

Sorry kenneth, this one is not short.. quick summary, I love bridgebrowser.. so you can skip the rest.

 

Well, what can you do with Bridgebrowser... I probably have only scratched the surface, but let me highlight a few things.

 

1) You can look up all the hands you (or anyone else) have played within the set of data you purchase. That is easy.

 

2) You can look up all the hands you played with one particular partner, or any subset of partners.

 

3) You can look up all hands you played against a specific oppoent, or a specific subset of opponents.

 

4) You can find out your average MP and imp results by time range, by partner, by contract, by offense or defense, by all hands played.

 

5) You can find all hands you open 1NT, or 1C, or 1H... you can find all hands you open any bid and your patner makes a specific response (you can even find all hands where with opener's or responders rebids)... Every wonder how well your multi-2D opening bids are doing, piece of cake.

 

6) Like a chess opening database, you can forget lookng gor all your hands (or all mine), and you can search for all auctions that start 1H-(1S)-2D-(P)-3D for instance.. and you can put requirements on thiese bids, say opnenr has to have exaclty five hearts to AQJ or a minimum of 5H to what ever card you want, and a specfic number of hcp (say 11 to 15).

 

7) You can search for hands by shape, hcp, etc. So for insttance you could check to see how opening 1NT with 4441 with a small singleton does... or 4441 with a singleton K or Q.

 

8) You can also check defensive bidding, when you overcall or use takeout double. i used this to confirm that misho's meta overcalls work very well against opening preempts.

 

9) You can look at all the other plays on the hands and how the results look. Right now Bridgebroswer online has nealrly 3 million tourment/team game hands and almost 6 million main room hands. This isn't 9 million unique deals, for instance, each main room deal is played exactly 16 times. So it would take 16 million total hands there to have a million unique deals..but you can find hundreds of any example without any trouble... For instance when the cue-bidding issue came up where I like to play disciplined splinters in GF situations, I searched for hands that started 1S-2H- where opener had 3 to 5 card heart support and a minor singleton or void to confirm that the approach I use keeps me confortable. I also use it to examine hand to see which auction is the best approach.....

 

I can strongly recommend this program to anyone who wants to study bidding in the fashion similar ot chess openings. (Disclaimer, I am a friend of the program's author).

 

The play issue is a little more complicated. There you have to look at the hands and decide for yourself in most cases... I use it study play, but that is more time consuming.

 

Also, unless yhou have a VERY FAST internet connection, I recommend the program on CD ROM instead of the online version,... for plain fun, the data can be from okbridge or bridgebase... (I prefer the bridgebase data cause not only are my hands included, but my friends as well).

 

Here is a little info for you. In tourments and team games, you have played 30 hands with O S H, and 19 with southwind (these are the most).... In the main room you have played 509 hands, the most with pacci (89) and a player named 42, who oddly enough, you have played 41 hands with you. Of interest maybe, to readers here, you have also played with free (9) and mcphee (11).. Oddly, we haven't played together yet.. we really need to remedy that. BTW, of these 589 hands, you specificallly opened 1C (26), 1D (33), 1H (15), 1S (27) and 1NT (16) times. Of the 16 1NT hands, four had 15 hcp, five had 16 hcp, five had 17 hcp, and one had 18 hcp.. the final one, playing with O. S. H. had 12 hcp with 4-4 in majors.

 

Note hands played in private and public rooms, like BIL Lounge, are NOT included in the database.

 

Ben

Its ok ben i gladly read it all becouse this sounds interresting, its it difficoult to use this system?

And if u have time and are up to it can u please check how many times i open 1 nt on a 14 count hand? my p say i do it so often we should state our nt to be 14-17.

and is my 14 count nt openings sucsessfull?

(I know what u mean uf u think "hey, what am i your bellboy or somting??? bye the programm and do it yourself" ) but if u are up to it i would be glad ben ty:))

 

 

kenneth

[luke warm]

maybe i just need my 2nd cup, but i can't see what i'm paying so much money for... i can see how to use lin converter, for example.. but with this, the way the site is worded i'd have to buy the program and then buy databases

 

what am i missing?