Ask or show?

[paulg]

[hv=d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1c2c(Majors)d(Values%20or%20desire%20to%20penalise)3h3s]133|100[/hv]

 

Two of the pairs who spend more time than most discussing their systems had this problem last weekend in the English Premier League. Their basic agreement over two-suited overcalls is that you show the suit you have stopped when searching for 3NT, but normally there is space for both calls. Neither had discussed this specific auction and it transpires that it would have been better if both Norths had been partners and also both Souths.

 

Do you think 3♠ shows a spade stop or asks for a spade stop?

[whereagles]

Neither. If you don't want to penalize opps, this must thus show shortness and a willingness to go beyond game.

[gnasher]

If pass would be non-forcing, I think 3♠ is just a non-specific game-force. If it says anything about stoppers, it denies a heart stop - with hearts stopped and a hand that belongs in notrumps, you'd probably just bid 3NT and assume from the bidding that spades are stopped.

 

If pass would be forcing, it's logical that lacking a heart stop you can pass to see what responder does. If he doubles 3♥ for penalties, you can assume he has a stop; with a heart stop but not a penalty double, he'll probably bid 3NT himself. Hence 3♠ by opener shows a heart stop and either expresses doubt about spades or is an attempt to get responder to play the hand.

[pooltuna]

I believe the meta agreement is if 2 suits are unknown then bidding one shows

[Phil]

If I held solid clubs, one of the majors stopped, and a diamond stopper, I would not be interested in penalizing the opponents, but would like to play 3N.

 

If I had a heart stopper, and I didn't think 5♣ was playable - xx QJx AQ AKQxxx, I'd bite the bullet and bid 3N. Therefore, I think 3♠ asks for a heart stopper, even though it violates the metarule about "we show stoppers when they bid two suits".

 

Even if we agreed on a forcing pass here, its hard to see how it helps.

[gnasher]

Whatever your rule is, it should start with the words "If we can cue-bid both suits below 3NT", or "If we can cue-bid both suits at the same level".

[paulg]

... If it says anything about stoppers, it denies a heart stop - with hearts stopped and a hand that belongs in notrumps, you'd probably just bid 3NT and assume from the bidding that spades are stopped.

Phil makes the same, sensible, point. I wish I'd thought of it at the time as it would have saved some brain cells.

[paulg]

If pass would be non-forcing,

I don't know how others play it, but this would not be a forcing pass situation for us. Showing values opposite a potential 11-13 balanced hand does not commit us to play in game or the four-level. We would be in a forcing situation over a simple 2♥ call.

[dboxley]

If I held solid clubs, one of the majors stopped, and a diamond stopper, I would not be interested in penalizing the opponents, but would like to play 3N.

 

If I had a heart stopper, and I didn't think 5♣ was playable - xx QJx AQ AKQxxx, I'd bite the bullet and bid 3N. Therefore, I think 3♠ asks for a heart stopper, even though it violates the metarule about "we show stoppers when they bid two suits".

 

Even if we agreed on a forcing pass here, its hard to see how it helps.

 

I agree with everything except I don't understand how this violates the "metarule", they have bid 2 suits and therefore 3♠ shows a stop.

[gszes]

IMO it will be extremely rare where x of 3h here is useful

as penalty x. I would prefer X of 3h to show hearts stopped

and no spade stop (optimistic assumptions aside <sorry gnasher>)

3s shows spade stopped and no heart stop.

[Finch]

It depends a bit what double means.

I play double as take-out, and I think that is not an uncommon agreement given that this is not a forcing pass auction. (If pass is forcing all the inferences are different, but as you say I don't see why pass should be forcing here.)

 

If double is penalties and pass non-forcing, then 3S sounds like something in spades, no heart stop, and game forcing values.

 

If double is take-out and pass is non-forcing, then I think 3S is a game force that doesn't want to bid 3NT - if we had a heart stop, we'd trust partner to have a spade holding for his double so it's either too strong to bid 3NT or extreme heart shortage. I suppose the latter bids 4H, so it must be a very good hand that doesn't want to go past 3NT or thinks partner should be declarer.

 

p.s. I have no memory of this hand. Odd given that I must have played it!

[paulg]

p.s. I have no memory of this hand. Odd given that I must have played it!

Board 15 of the first set on Sunday. I think your team lost 12 imps, so perhaps blanking it out :) Someone in the first division scored +1600 on the hand - does that help?

[MrAce]

To me this is primarily asking us to bid 3NT with ♥ stopper. Of course pd may have more than just game intentions with a freak strong hand, but he will tell us about it later if he has that. I voted it shows ♠ stopper but i agree with Phil that he might do it just to ask ♥ stopper. Something like xxx x Ax AKQJxxx

 

I would not take pass as forcing by opener btw.

[Trinidad]

I believe the meta agreement is if 2 suits are unknown then bidding one shows

That is indeed a common agreement. It does come with a simple problem, though: There is no bid for a strong hand that doesn't have a stopper in any of the suits and there are two ways to show stops in both suits.

Therefore, it is generally better to play that a cue asks for a stop, also in the case of two suiters:

- The cheapest cue asks for a stop in that suit, not saying anything about the other suit. (Partner cues the other suit to show a stop in the first and ask for a stop in the other.)

- A cue in the other suit asks for a stop and promises a stop in the suit that was skipped.

- 3NT shows stops in both suits.

 

This case is an obvious exception. The opponents have shown the majors and a preference to play in hearts. The stop in hearts is much more critical than the stop in spades. Therefore, 3♠ asks for a stop in hearts.

 

Rik

[han]

If you have a heart stop you either double or bid 3NT. 3S is not clear on spades but it denies a heart stop.

[jdeegan]

:P I think the majority of the posters are correct. 3♠ denies a heart stop, and it either shows a spade stop (normally) or is a prelude to some other kind of strong auction with a well understood (at least by pard) strain to play in.