wyman Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 [hv=pc=n&s=skj86h74da54cak73&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1n2d(%21d)p2h(%21h)]133|200[/hv] All doubles takeout. Are we inviting P into the discussion here, or just letting the opps go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmcw Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Partner had opportunity to enter over 2♦ and didn't.I have a minimum for my previous bid, and who knows maybe the opps are not done. On the plus I have decent holdings in the blacks, nothing wasted in the reds, and fav V. At IMPs it's a clear pass for me! at MP's its close but I wimp out and hope P may be able to back in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiddity Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Pass, we are not in pass out seat and pd is not dead yet. Balancing 2♥ is very easy if u have the correct agreements. We dont even know if they have a fit yet or if they are done with bidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel_k Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 I would always double because it's so unlikely that defending 2♥ is right. Yes, partner can balance but we would also like him to be able to pass when it's right to do so. That is much easier for him if he can assume we don't have a hand like this one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted October 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Balancing 2♥ is very easy if u have the correct agreements. Can you elaborate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 I would double at matchpoints and pass at IMPs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Double seems clear. It's T/O and we have T/O. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 Partner's double of 2D would have been takeout also, according to OP. They are the ones scrambling from a misfit in diamonds; I will leave them alone. Would be o.k. at this vul if pard has some diamonds and hearts and points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 I would pass 1. The auction is relatively unlimited, and we don't know that LHO is passing 2♥2. Partner is still there if LHO passes, tho he probably can't bid3. The opps haven't shown a fit, so we can't infer that, since they have one, we rate to also have one4. If the hand belongs to them, action by us will turn a mp average into a minus and a imp push into a big loss. While partscore swings count at imps, we have little reason to think this hand belongs to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted October 4, 2011 Report Share Posted October 4, 2011 What a beautiful t/o double. Great defence, 4 spades, 2 small hearts. Yea yea we could have a queen more but really that would not be a 1n opening any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babushkka Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 nevermind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 What a beautiful t/o double. Great defence, 4 spades, 2 small hearts. Yea yea we could have a queen more but really that would not be a 1n opening any more.I agree that this hand fits the definition of a takeout double. The problem is not that you lack the hand that you show by doubling....it's the risk that partner (who has so far been silent) lacks the hand that enables your side to survive your call. Sometimes the auction should persuade us that a plausible action is just too dangerous. We can agree to disagree, but I do think that, if we act, we should at least acknowledge that this could be a disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel_k Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 There is some danger in acting, but obviously it is much more dangerous for partner to act if he has something like Qxxx xxx xxx Qxx. The hand short in opponents' suit should usually take the initiative and I don't think there is enough risk here to make an exception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjbrr Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 I think the fact that the opponents haven't found a fit (and likely have a misfit) makes doubling too scary for me. While it's obvious how doubling could be right for us, we should also consider that the opponents will sometimes bid poorly in this auction as well even if we keep our mouth shut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 I agree with jmcw and mikeh. Partner didn't double 2D so has less than a 7-count. If it is right to bid over 2H, partner can double in passout seat. This is very different from 1NT - 2H - p - p, where doubling is automatic. Here I would only double with something close to a maximum. We don't need to protect partner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 X. And for sure this is not everybodies cup of coffee. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Pass. Partner can bid 2♠ or 2N as TO, compete with 3♣ or even smack 2♥ (penalty) when it comes around. He can pass too. I am happy with whatever he chooses. Unfortunately in my methods, if I have the heart stack, we are playing for 100's, unless I can double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted October 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Pass. Partner can bid 2♠ or 2N as TO, compete with 3♣ or even smack 2♥ (penalty) when it comes around. He can pass too. I am happy with whatever he chooses. Unfortunately in my methods, if I have the heart stack, we are playing for 100's. Just to clarify: partner cannot axe 2H; his X would be t/o (I'm coming around on the "it should be penalty in this auction, because he has 2S and 2N as takeout" idea -- it just didn't fit into the meta-agreements we had already discussed, so I'm treating it as t/o for now). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I agree that this hand fits the definition of a takeout double. The problem is not that you lack the hand that you show by doubling....it's the risk that partner (who has so far been silent) lacks the hand that enables your side to survive your call. Sometimes the auction should persuade us that a plausible action is just too dangerous. We can agree to disagree, but I do think that, if we act, we should at least acknowledge that this could be a disaster.Yes it can be a disaster, actually almost any post could be appended with this stipulation :) well ok, I realise that in this case the chances of a disaster are higher than, say, when we double a 2H opener with a 4144 14 count :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 I realise that in this case the chances of a disaster are higher than, say, when we double a 2H opener with a 4144 14 count :)Absolutely. Perhaps partner is better placed to figure out what we might have from the given auction than we are to try and guess what partner might hold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Absolutely. Perhaps partner is better placed to figure out what we might have from the given auction than we are to try and guess what partner might hold.Well I don't understand what your post has got to do with my post, and why you said "absolutely". I am a doubler and I am not doubling to try and guess what partner might hold. I am a doubler because I think my hand is worth a double, in fact my post above said why I thought my hand is worth a double. nigel_k gave some more interesting and eloquent reasons for doubling. Other people gave yet other interesting and eloquent reasons for passing. I agree that there are clear downsides to my preferred action (double), but on the whole, having considered everything (well, not everything, just several things, enough things for my taste), I am doubling. I am not doubling to cater to my partner having forgotten to bid, or to mastermind, or because I have a personal problem with the little green guys in my bidding box. Are we clear on my motives? Now, I really don't understand why you have to equate, every now and then, the opposing view, to some simple-minded simpleton philosophy. Or if you really want to do, please read first what the proponents of said view have to say for themselves. If all they are really saying is "aha! we're clever! we want to double! our partners are morons, we will think for them!" (perhaps not word for word, but you get the idea), then by all means, mock us and persecute us. But please don't persecute your imaginary straw men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Or, maybe I was just aknowledging your excellent risk assessment and disagreeing with your conclusion. When someone has a view, but admits to its risk, it is worthy of acknowledgement. When someone decides to make a different call from yours, it is not a form of ridicule; nor should it be the subject of personalization or generalization by either one of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiddity Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Pass. Partner can bid 2♠ or 2N as TO, compete with 3♣ or even smack 2♥ (penalty) when it comes around. He can pass too. I am happy with whatever he chooses. Unfortunately in my methods, if I have the heart stack, we are playing for 100's, unless I can double. This seems strange. Who is going to double for penalty on this auction? Opener - a 15-17 NT opposite a partner who has shown nothing? Responder, who couldn't act over 2♦ and yet has a penalty double of 2♥ sitting in front of the bidder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 This seems strange. Who is going to double for penalty on this auction? Opener - a 15-17 NT opposite a partner who has shown nothing? I acknowledge this is a loss when responder doesn't have anything and opener decides to double, or when responder has a balance and opener decides not to double. Responder, who couldn't act over 2♦ and yet has a penalty double of 2♥ sitting in front of the bidder? Why is this such an unusual circumstance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts