Can you add science to my inelegant auction?

[the_dude]

This came up with my partner in a practice bidding session:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sat2hajdqjt875ckq&n=sk3hk76dak32ca932&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1np3cp3dp5np6cp7dppp]266|200|IMPs[/hv]

 

1NT= 15-17

3♣ = xfer

5NT = choose between 6♦ and 6NT

6♣ = grand slam try .. I have a supermax for diamonds, perhaps we can make 7

7♦ = Partner made a grand slam try without either major suit ace .. surely this is an accept

 

We got there, but without checking for aces or K/Q trumps, which is a little worrisome. Obviously the culprit is the 5NT bid, so how would you bid it?

 

(ps: is it clear that 6♣ is a grand slam try and not a 5-6 card suit as an option to play?)

[kenrexford]

Personally, I would not open 1NT, because the control count is too good and because the shape is not 4333. 1♦...2NT for me.'

 

That's a matter of style, though.

 

As to the actual auction, it is difficult to advise a follow-up after an unusual call like a transfer bid of 3♣, which is far from standard, without knowing what the follow-up calls mean. For instance, after Opener bids 3♦, what would Responder mean by bidding 3♥ or 3♠? If these confirm slam interest and are control bids, that seems like a no-brainer.

 

If I had to guess, I would suggest 4♥ might be Kickback?

 

1NT-3♣!

3♦-4♥!

 

If so, that seems easy. Partner shows 3 (4♠ unless 1430), and Responder can count 11 tricks. If 5♣ asks for specific Kings, then, as an example, Opener can show the heart King (5♥), getting it to 12 tricks. If Responder's 5♠ then invites the grand if Opener has the spade King, which he does, then 7NT is a matter of counting to 13, as long as Opener does not have the unlucky club doubleton, in which case a heart hook might be needed.

[mike777]

1d=3c!

3d=3nt

4c=4h!

4s!=5h!

5s=6c

6h=7nt

 

1d(1nt is 14-16)

3c=art gf in d.

4h=rkc in d

4s=3

5h=specific k ask, grand try

5s=KS

6c=KC

6h=KH

[VM1973]

I believe most transfer-to-minor schemes have a two-space distance in the transfers for example:

 

1NT-2NT transfers to diamonds. In this case the opening bidder can super-accept by bidding 3♣.

 

Adding your ZPs to opener's assumed 30 yields a prognosis of 12.4 tricks. That being the case, why not just ask for aces as soon as the transfer is accomplished? I prefer kickback, but there are other methods available.

[Fluffy]

I would bid it, but I would go down (or need the heart finese) if partner had 3 spades and 2 clubs. Worst of all would be to find 4342 with ♥KQ and not ♠K, I would still be in 7.

 

 

1NT-3♣

3♦-4♦ (4♦= no shortness slam try)

4♥-4NT

5♦-5NT (5NT= asking for extra tricks)

6♦-7♦/NT (6♦= 1 extra trick: ♠K, but ♥Q would be just as good)

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I believe most transfer-to-minor schemes have a two-space distance in the transfers for example:

 

1NT-2NT transfers to diamonds. In this case the opening bidder can super-accept by bidding 3♣.

 

Adding your ZPs to opener's assumed 30 yields a prognosis of 12.4 tricks. That being the case, why not just ask for aces as soon as the transfer is accomplished? I prefer kickback, but there are other methods available.

Agree.... although Minorwood can be used on this one.

And because of the available space, 5C! can be used for starting the specific K-asks ( not the usual kickback for kings ):

 

1NT - 2NT! ( transfer to Diam )

3C! ( gap bid preaccept ) - 4D! ( Minorwood )

4H ( 0/3 ) - ??

...................4S! ( next step ) would be dQ-ask

...................4NT would be to play

................... 5C! = specific K-ask ( reply your cheapest K )

 

soo after: - 5C!

5H ( hK ) - 5S! = 2nd K-ask

5NT ( have sK ; NT shows asked-for feature ) - 7NT ( can count 13 top winners if 3 clubs cash )

[Phil]

All the Gerber fanatics in my club would bid 7N in their sleep.

[Zelandakh]

This seems easy, just use RKCB or system equivalent! My auction is likely to run. I say likely, since it would not be unreasonable for North to upgrade to 18 after hearing a positive.

 

1C = 15+ bal/nat or 18+ any

... - 1S = no major, GF

2N = 15-17 bal

... - 4C = 6+ diamonds, slammy

4S = super-accept with 3 key cards

... - 5C = kings?

5H = HK

... - 5S = another?

5N = SK

... - 7N

 

This is essentially identical to Ken's and Don's auctions allowing for system differences. @Don, I am a little shocked you use 3041 rather than 1430 here! It makes a difference if you have 4NT as always to play after minorwood.

[Cyberyeti]

1♦-2♦

3N-4♥

4♠-5♦

5♥-5N

6♠-7N

 

2♦ inverted not denying 4M F3♦

3N is 3343/(23)44 17-19

4♥ is keycard 3041, style to sign off and partner comes again with higher number

5N tell me more, interested in grand

partner has shown 3 key cards plus both major suit kings and not a doubleton club so you can count 6+3+2+2 = 13 in NT

 

The one that's tricky to bid is opposite Kx, xxx, AKxx, AJxx.

[whereagles]

What's wrong with the auction? Seems fine to me.

 

Playing pairs you could risk 7NT, but in imps this is a nice one.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

All the Gerber fanatics in my club would bid 7N in their sleep.

Gerber ? OP asked for "science" ... ;)

[TWO4BRIDGE]

@Don, I am a little shocked you use 3041 rather than 1430 here! It makes a difference if you have 4NT as always to play after minorwood.

I've always preferred 0314...

What is disadvantage in Minorwood with 4NT = to play after the first ask ?

 

I know there is a disadvantage when using Kickback if you need a subsequent trump Q-ask and CLUBS are trump :

 

4D!( kickback-RKC) - 4S!

............... Whether 4S! is 0/3 or 1/4 , and 4NT = to play, you don't have a trump Q-ask below 5C...

[mike777]

I've always preferred 0314...

What is disadvantage in Minorwood with 4NT = to play after the first ask ?

 

I know there is a disadvantage when using Kickback if you need a subsequent trump Q-ask and CLUBS are trump :

 

4D!( kickback-RKC) - 4S!

............... Whether 4S! is 0/3 or 1/4 , and 4NT = to play, you don't have a trump Q-ask below 5C...

 

playing kickback:

 

 

if clubs are trump andpard bids 4s....4nt is queen ask it aint to play you cant play in 4nt ever.

 

4d(rkc in c)=4s(1-4)

4nt(q ask)

 

or:

 

 

4d(rkc in c)=4h(0-3)

4nt=KD, grand try inclubs not to play. 5d over 4h wuld be specific K ask and 4s over 4h would be q ask. :)

[Zelandakh]

I've always preferred 0314...

What is disadvantage in Minorwood with 4NT = to play after the first ask ?

 

I know there is a disadvantage when using Kickback if you need a subsequent trump Q-ask and CLUBS are trump :

 

4D!( kickback-RKC) - 4S!

............... Whether 4S! is 0/3 or 1/4 , and 4NT = to play, you don't have a trump Q-ask below 5C...

On this hand, if you were playing 1430 then after ... 4D - 4S = 0 or 3, if 4NT is to play then 5C is the Q ask and we cannot ask for kings below 5D. That means you could not find both kings below 6D. The same applies to the auction 4C - 4H; 4S is the Q ask, 4NT and 5C are to play. I am not convinced that having 4NT to play in these auctions is best. Of course space is even more constrained after Kickback and here I think it is best if 4NT is never to play.

[Vampyr]

1NT-2NT transfers to diamonds. In this case the opening bidder can super-accept by bidding 3♣.

 

 

This is neither standard nor best.

[ArtK78]

This is neither standard nor best.

Indeed. Most players who play 4-suit transfers now play that the bid of the suit by the 1NT opener shows extras (whether defined as a fit or a max opening or both). The bid of the intervening strain is the "negative" call.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I am not convinced that having 4NT to play in these auctions is best. Of course space is even more constrained after Kickback and here I think it is best if 4NT is never to play.

 

Even when playing Minorwood, I've always played "Kickback for Kings" ( since 5m = to play ) -- Max Hardy's suggestion.... since he also suggested 4NT = "to play".

 

[ ie. You have "enough stuff" to play safely at the 4-level, so you explore for keycards at a low level( Minorwood ), but have the option to stop at 4NT when missing 2 keys -- especially at MP scoring ] .

[ArtK78]

Even when playing Minorwood, I've always played "Kickback for Kings" ( since 5m = to play ) -- Max Hardy's suggestion.... since he also suggested 4NT = "to play".

 

[ ie. You have "enough stuff" to play safely at the 4-level, so you explore for keycards at a low level( Minorwood ), but have the option to stop at 4NT when missing 2 keys -- especially at MP scoring ] .

I have played 4NT and 5♣ as signoffs (if the trump suit is diamonds, partner bids 5♦ over 5♣) and 5♦ as asking for kings.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I have played 4NT and 5♣ as signoffs (if the trump suit is diamonds, partner bids 5♦ over 5♣) and 5♦ as asking for kings.

But then you may not have a ♦Q-ask BELOW 5D .

 

Diam are trump:

4D ( Minorwood ) - 4S ( 0/3 or 1/4 whichever you play )

??

..4NT = to play

...5C = I would use this as ♦ Q-ask

...5D = to play

...5H = Kickback for Kings ( asks for cheapest bid K )

...5S = asking for 3rd Rnd Ctrl in Sp ( by-passing the K-ask )

..5NT = asking for 3rd Rnd Ctrl in Hts ( " " " )

...6C = asking for 3rd Rnd Ctrl in Cl ( " " " )

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 If 6C is grandslam try, than the auction looks ok, undiscussed I am not so sure,

and showing a strong 5 card suit as a suggestion to play 6C is certainly more useful.

#2 Going slower has some merrits, i.e. 4D instead of 5NT will give you some room, to find

out, if p has the magic cards.

#3 As already mentioned, it is quite common to be able have the option to show a super for

p minor, there are various schemes.

If you play 3C as transfer to diamonds, what would be a direct 3D?

If 3D is inv., than the transfer is either weak or showes GF (maybe with some SI), in which

caase responder may be able to slow down.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[VM1973]

Indeed. Most players who play 4-suit transfers now play that the bid of the suit by the 1NT opener shows extras (whether defined as a fit or a max opening or both). The bid of the intervening strain is the "negative" call.

Why is that better?

[xxhong]

1D 2D(gf raise)

3C(4+C, extra) 3D(5+D)

3H(cue) 3S(cue)

4C(cue CA) 4D( 6+D)

4H(RKC) 5D(two KC with Q)

5S(SK) 7D(now you know partner shows SK, HK, DAK, CA)

 

This came up with my partner in a practice bidding session:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sat2hajdqjt875ckq&n=sk3hk76dak32ca932&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1np3cp3dp5np6cp7dppp]266|200|IMPs[/hv]

 

1NT= 15-17

3♣ = xfer

5NT = choose between 6♦ and 6NT

6♣ = grand slam try .. I have a supermax for diamonds, perhaps we can make 7

7♦ = Partner made a grand slam try without either major suit ace .. surely this is an accept

 

We got there, but without checking for aces or K/Q trumps, which is a little worrisome. Obviously the culprit is the 5NT bid, so how would you bid it?

 

(ps: is it clear that 6♣ is a grand slam try and not a 5-6 card suit as an option to play?)

[ArtK78]

Why is that better?

 

The primary advantage of this method is that it allows the 1NT opener to be declarer without having to perform some fancy footwork after the "positive" intervening call. This is often important in high level minor suit contracts.

 

Also, it allows one to use the transfer to diamonds as the weak get out with both minor suits. If opener does not fit diamonds, he bids 3♣ and responder passes. This is a minor point (pardon the pun).

[han]

This seems really easy. You transfer to diamonds, bid 4D (denying shortness), partner bids 4H, you ask for keycards, partner shows 3, try for a grand and partner bids 6S showing the king (he already showed the heart king). That's not science, it's called keycards.

[gnasher]

The primary advantage of this method is that it allows the 1NT opener to be declarer without having to perform some fancy footwork after the "positive" intervening call. This is often important in high level minor suit contracts.

That's true on the hands where opener has a fit and we end up in the minor. That is at least partly counterbalanced by the hands where opener doesn't have a fit but we still end up in the minor.

In any case, I don't see this as a big problem. Unless responder's next action is raise his own suit, opener can usually find a way to take the declarership.

 

There is at least one disadvantage to the "complete with a positive" style: it wrongsides the partscores where rightsiding is most likely to matter. Also, if a positive reply (however you define it) is less frequent than a negative, this style wrongsides more partscores.