inquiry Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 To illustrate my point, I used bridgebowser to grab about the first hands that the auction went 1S-2H-4C on.. .see how many you agree with (I think not many).... [hv=d=n&v=e&n=s8754hadq873cqt95&w=sat2hkj7543dj954c&e=skqj63hq982dt2cak&s=s9ht6dak6cj876432]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - Pass 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] [hv=d=n&v=e&n=s8754hadq873cqt95&w=sat2hkj7543dj954c&e=skqj63hq982dt2cak&s=s9ht6dak6cj876432]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - Pass 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] [hv=d=n&v=e&n=s8754hadq873cqt95&w=sat2hkj7543dj954c&e=skqj63hq982dt2cak&s=s9ht6dak6cj876432]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - Pass 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] [hv=d=n&v=e&n=s8754hadq873cqt95&w=sat2hkj7543dj954c&e=skqj63hq982dt2cak&s=s9ht6dak6cj876432]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - Pass 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] [hv=d=n&v=e&n=s8754hadq873cqt95&w=sat2hkj7543dj954c&e=skqj63hq982dt2cak&s=s9ht6dak6cj876432]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - Pass 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv]; [hv=d=n&v=e&n=s8754hadq873cqt95&w=sat2hkj7543dj954c&e=skqj63hq982dt2cak&s=s9ht6dak6cj876432]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - Pass 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] [hv=d=n&v=e&n=s8754hadq873cqt95&w=sat2hkj7543dj954c&e=skqj63hq982dt2cak&s=s9ht6dak6cj876432]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - Pass 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] [hv=d=n&v=e&n=s8754hadq873cqt95&w=sat2hkj7543dj954c&e=skqj63hq982dt2cak&s=s9ht6dak6cj876432]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - Pass 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] [hv=d=n&v=e&n=s8754hadq873cqt95&w=sat2hkj7543dj954c&e=skqj63hq982dt2cak&s=s9ht6dak6cj876432]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - Pass 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] [hv=d=n&v=e&n=s8754hadq873cqt95&w=sat2hkj7543dj954c&e=skqj63hq982dt2cak&s=s9ht6dak6cj876432]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - Pass 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] [hv=d=n&v=e&n=s8754hadq873cqt95&w=sat2hkj7543dj954c&e=skqj63hq982dt2cak&s=s9ht6dak6cj876432]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - Pass 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] [hv=d=n&v=e&n=s8754hadq873cqt95&w=sat2hkj7543dj954c&e=skqj63hq982dt2cak&s=s9ht6dak6cj876432]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - Pass 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] [hv=d=n&v=e&n=s8754hadq873cqt95&w=sat2hkj7543dj954c&e=skqj63hq982dt2cak&s=s9ht6dak6cj876432]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - Pass 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted October 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 You have made a number of points, Ben, and I am more or less converted, but I am not sure which point these hands are supposed to illustrate. On very few hands do I agree with the 4C rebid. If neither of us agree with the 4C rebid, and yet differ on the bids that we would have made instead, then we might as well discard them from the population. Otherwise they are just white noise. Most of the 4C bids are not splinters, let alone too strong to splinter. This proves that a lot of players make bids that I do not agree with. Do they end in the top spot where I do not? Not especially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 Here are my comment on how the bidding should have gone... on the hands from above which are at least suitable for a splinter 4♣ bid..... all the other uses of 4♣ will be ignored... :-) [hv=d=n&v=e&n=s8754hadq873cqt95&w=sat2hkj7543dj954c&e=skqj63hq982dt2cak&s=s9ht6dak6cj876432]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - Pass 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] Well, I will show this one.. I guess 4♣ is hyper splinter... I can only asssume 4♠ denys a diamond control and shows spade control. With two diamond and a heart loser, lucky opener can pass.. now no more hands where 4♣ is anything but a splinter. [hv=d=n&v=e&n=s8754hadq873cqt95&w=sat2hkj7543dj954c&e=skqj63hq982dt2cak&s=s9ht6dak6cj876432]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - Pass 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] Splinter with a void (instead of limit to singleton) and with great controls in the unbid suit. How is north to evaluate his holding? This is the exact hand where I think splinter is uncalled for. The bidding should be.. 1S-2H; 3H-4C; 4D-5H; 6C-6H; pass Where 4C was no "slam interest" and cue bid. Denies A, K or Q of spades. 4D was LTTC, promises a spade control, and at least some slam interest. North is as good as he can be for his 4C only bid, so 5H is lackwood, and 6C shows diamond ACE and two key cards overall. [hv=d=n&v=e&n=s8754hadq873cqt95&w=sat2hkj7543dj954c&e=skqj63hq982dt2cak&s=s9ht6dak6cj876432]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - Pass 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv]Ok.. here I would make a forcing 3H raise with opener's hand, and then trot out blackwood. With a pickup partner, just bid 4NT over 2H. [hv=d=n&v=e&n=s8754hadq873cqt95&w=sat2hkj7543dj954c&e=skqj63hq982dt2cak&s=s9ht6dak6cj876432]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - Pass 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] This one violates teh rule of no first or second round control in fourth suit, so my bidding would be... 1S-2Hl; 3H-3S; 3NT-4H; 5H/Pass 3S shows teh king here... now serious 3NT and partner bids 4H. He didn't even make the last train response of 4D, so he is very weak for previous bidding. Opener can try 4NT but I think PASS of 5NT (how good are your trumps) are both better choices. The problem is over 5H, responder might think AQfifth is pretty good. The slam is very bad, needing Kx or singleton king on side... I wonder if anyone would brave enough to pass 4♥ after two slam tries... knowing partner has the spade king. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted October 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 There seems to be a strong case for splitting the ranges of a direct splinter and a delayed splinter (via forcing raise). If a direct raise is supposed to embrace all hands that do not contain an available splinter then it uses up a low level bid for a disproportionately small proportion of hands. I think the principal of fast arrival is over-used. It certainly has it's place when you are sure that slam is out of the question, but the suggestion that 1S-2H-4H should show the same hand type as 1S-2H-3H except weaker is mistaken, where the 2H bid is unlimited. I reckon that 1S-2H-4H should show something highly specific, and 1S-2H-3H should embrace a wide variety of hands. I misled you earlier when I said that in our methods 1S-2H-3H showed extras. I should have contented myself with the explanation that, whilst 1S-2H is not GF and 1S-2H-3H is GF, the 3H rebid does not necessarily show extra high card values, when there is compensating shape, especially with trump control. We played that 1S-2H-2S can be passed only if responder is minimum with a Spade fit, else it promises a rebid following which opener may show a minimum hand with delayed Heart support. There is a small risk of playing in 2S when a game is a good prospect by reason of a double fit, despite that both hands have minimum values in context. As soon as that risk becomes significant opener should prefer to raise 2H, which could contain a minimum raise with an outside shortage (and is committed to 4H). I can see how it may gain to get the splinter across with the minimum hand, and make a direct raise with extras + splinter available. At the moment I am unconvinced that there is a huge benefit to playing it one way over another, but have to do some research yet. Anyway, Chiminea beckons for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 Well, here are some additional ones that fit the requirements. 1) Opener has heart fit (At least three)2) Opnere has singleton (or void) in clubs See how you would bid them. These were not always bid very well by the players involved. [hv=d=e&v=a&n=sqj5h64dakt2c9843&w=s9haj987d43cakj52&e=sak8743hkq532dj8c&s=st62htdq9765cqt76]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - - 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♥ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] If 4C denies first or second round control of diamonds, this is easy stop in 4♥.. if not, this will be a 4♦ LTTC and a 5♥ lackwood auction. If 4♣ denies stopper in diamonds (as I play it), then 4♦ is no longer neutral, it promises a control but expresses uncertaintly about bidding on. [hv=d=e&v=a&n=sqj5h64dakt2c9843&w=s9haj987d43cakj52&e=sak8743hkq532dj8c&s=st62htdq9765cqt76]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - - 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♥ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] A nice stop with use of the splinter. I would not splinter because of the diamonds cards.. Mine ould be 1S-2H-3H-3S-4C-4H-Pass.. explaination.. 3H = heart fit, 3S = A, K or Q of spades, 4C = cue-bid, no serious slam interest. IF opener has no serious interest, responder doesn't either, ending the auction. [hv=d=e&v=a&n=sqj5h64dakt2c9843&w=s9haj987d43cakj52&e=sak8743hkq532dj8c&s=st62htdq9765cqt76]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - - 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♥ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] I would never consider splintering on this hand with three trumps. Over 2♥, I would probably begin by rebidding my spade suit (still GF) and then raise hearts. To make slam partner needs great hearts, spade ace and/or diamond king. IF he has that, we have plenty of time to find it out after a 2♠ rebid. [hv=d=e&v=a&n=sqj5h64dakt2c9843&w=s9haj987d43cakj52&e=sak8743hkq532dj8c&s=st62htdq9765cqt76]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - - 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♥ Pass Pass Pass [/hv]Again, with three card support, I will bid out my shape.. first with 3D, then with heart raise (via 4♣ cue-bid)... 1S-2Hl 3D-3NT; 4C-4H; Pass.... Here 4C and 4H both show short club and three card heart support. It is jsut that 4C is stronger than 4H. When you bie three suits naturally, you will be short in the fourth, and with four card support, I would surely raise immediately. [hv=d=e&v=a&n=sqj5h64dakt2c9843&w=s9haj987d43cakj52&e=sak8743hkq532dj8c&s=st62htdq9765cqt76]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - - 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♥ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] This wasn't a successful auction.. .here is how it should go... 1S-2H; 3H-3NT; 4C-4D; 4NT-5C; 6H, where 3H set trumps, 3S was serious denying fitting spade honor, 4C was cue-bid, 4D was LTTC (responder already showing slam interest). Opener can take over with RKCB, counting on long spades or minor suit ruffs to provide extra tricks as needed. [hv=d=e&v=a&n=sqj5h64dakt2c9843&w=s9haj987d43cakj52&e=sak8743hkq532dj8c&s=st62htdq9765cqt76]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - - 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♥ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] Here the spliner works perfectly. Responder knows diamonds are wide open, and signs off is a safe, and makable 4♥. Five was down. [hv=d=e&v=a&n=sqj5h64dakt2c9843&w=s9haj987d43cakj52&e=sak8743hkq532dj8c&s=st62htdq9765cqt76]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - - 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♥ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] I may blunder along to this 50% slam as well.. I would rebid 3♦ over 2♥, partner will bid 3♠ (promising a minor suit control as well, since no picture jump). I am afraid I would bid Serious 3NT (if I trusted partner not to pass) or otherwise 4♣, and we would get to slam. [hv=d=e&v=a&n=sqj5h64dakt2c9843&w=s9haj987d43cakj52&e=sak8743hkq532dj8c&s=st62htdq9765cqt76]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - - 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♥ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] Perfect splinter.. The singleton king doesn't both me. Big heart fit, no diamond control, singleton club. An easier slam to bid can hardly be found. [hv=d=e&v=a&n=sqj5h64dakt2c9843&w=s9haj987d43cakj52&e=sak8743hkq532dj8c&s=st62htdq9765cqt76]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - - 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♥ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] However, I don't splinter iwth singleton ACE.. so here my auction would be... 1S-2H; 3H-3S; 3NT; 4D-5H; 6D-7H Where 3S was cue, 3NT was serious, 4D was LTTC, denying club control, 5H was Lackwood, 6D showed two keycards (including diamond ace) plus the heart queen. 7H can count the tricks. [hv=d=e&v=a&n=sqj5h64dakt2c9843&w=s9haj987d43cakj52&e=sak8743hkq532dj8c&s=st62htdq9765cqt76]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - - 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♥ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] 6♥ is a fine contract, but this pair failed to investigate 7... and that could be criminal. A three heart raise, the lack of a spade cue-bid, so responder will bid 4C, opener will bid 4D, responder will try to signoff. Opener will ahve none of that... Everyone will get to 6♥. [hv=d=e&v=a&n=sqj5h64dakt2c9843&w=s9haj987d43cakj52&e=sak8743hkq532dj8c&s=st62htdq9765cqt76]399|300|Scoring: IMPWest North East South - - 1♠ Pass 2♥ Pass 4♣ Pass 4♥ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] Don;'t ask me hwo they got out of hearts and into Notrump.. blew grand slam and game bounus. An easleir hand can not be imagined... 1S-2H4C <----- singleton, four turmps+, no diamond control Now roman keycard blackwood and placement in 7H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 Do you really think opener should have slam interest with weak spades and hearts and a partner without slam interest who has wasted values in clubs? Seems to me going on can at best lead to a slam on a finesse, and pretty much only if partner has a singleton spade. In a word yes. This is the advantage of Serious 3NT and LTTC. Clearly north has a minimum 2H response, so he will not issue a serious 3NT. Over 4C, south could sign off, or he could issue a small degree of uncertainty. After all, if necessary, his diamond suit might provide three tricks opposite three small. 4D by south is not a demand to bid slam, or even an absolute lets continue to try. My auctions frequently go 4D-4H-Pass here. It is responders good trumps, and responders singleton spade that allows him to keep the auction open. In otherwords, he has a virtual perfect 4C bid and if his partner doesn't sign off, he is primed to continue trying. Do I think most people will bid like this? No. Even I might waiver from time to time and bid 4H over 4C.. but I think 4D is the right bid. After all 4C covers a lot of different hand types. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 I am still not convinced that this method (splinter denies control of 4th suit) is the best. After 1♠ 2♥ (not GF) we have a lot of hand types we might want to show 1) Hands without ♥ support (of all strengths)2) (Sub -) Minimum hands with ♥ support not suitable for game3) Minimum hands which don't want to suggest a slam (but partner still might!)4) Hands which are slam suitable but not particularly slam suggestive5) Hands which are slam suggestive (or slam forcing) I am sure you will agree that 1♠ 2♥ 4♥ should be a picture bid (i.e minimum hand no control in minors), rather than any minimum. So you are splitting the support hands up as follows (please correct me if I am wrong) Group 2: 2♠ followed by ♥ support (bearing in mind that 2♠ also covers various hands in group 1)Group 3: 4♥ (if suitable - but most aren't) else 3♥Group 4: Splinter (if suitable - but most aren't) else 3♥Group 5: Splinter (if suitable - but most aren't) else 3♥ (or RKB, EKB etc) It may be that this is best, but it does seem that you are not making the most efficient use of alternative bids. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 I am still not convinced that this method (splinter denies control of 4th suit) is the best. After 1♠ 2♥ (not GF) we have a lot of hand types we might want to show 1) Hands without ♥ support (of all strengths)2) (Sub -) Minimum hands with ♥ support not suitable for game3) Minimum hands which don't want to suggest a slam (but partner still might!)4) Hands which are slam suitable but not particularly slam suggestive5) Hands which are slam suggestive (or slam forcing) I am sure you will agree that 1♠ 2♥ 4♥ should be a picture bid (i.e minimum hand no control in minors), rather than any minimum.Let me try to answer this, I am sure Ben will correct me where I get it wrong, hehe :lol:Ben is assuming serious 3NT and LTTC, so all this can be clarified later. First I think Ben is talking about 2/1 GF, so 2) doesn't exist. If you change 2) to "miminum hands, not suitable for slam at all", we get:2) delayed raise to 3♥, ignore partner's serious 3NT.3) Will omit serious 3NT, will make one cue-bid if partner bids serious 3NT, but probably sign-off if partner doesn't go to slam after this (i.e. sign-off if partner bids LTTC).4) Will make one try if partner omits serious 3NT, or will bid serious 3NT, but not go to slam without partner's cooperation5) Bid serious 3NT and go to slam if you get the right cuebid. On the other hand, if you splinter without strict requirements, you cannot discuss missing controls below 4♠ (and Gitelman cuebidding style tries to avoid the need of cuebidding on the 5-level). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 I am still not convinced that this method (splinter denies control of 4th suit) is the best. This may or may not be best. The main point of using a splinter is that a splinter *RELINQUISHES CAPTAINCY". Basically the point is: splinter is a descriptive bid, and descriptive bids are used to transfer to pard the decision, letting him know how the hand fits. So, when WE KNOW WE WANT TO BID ON even on pard's signoff, splinter is not a good idea, unless it is the only non-signoff fit-showing bid available. This principle is also the reason why some hands like the following (opps silent): 1♠: ? ♠KQXX-QXX-AKQx-x Here responder should NOT splinter because he is too strong.So the splinter should be limited in a narrow range.Hands too strong for a splinter should use a forcing raise (Jacoby 2NT if you use such method, or whichever way your methods allow for), which have 2 advantages: keep the bidding captaincy and do not waste bidding space. So, IF YOU PLAN TO BID ON, DO NOT USE SPLINTER (unless you have no other forcing bid available).IF YOU USE THE SPLINTER, YOU'LL TRANSFER THE DECISION OF THE FINAL CONTRACT TO PARD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 I am still not convinced that this method (splinter denies control of 4th suit) is the best. After 1♠ 2♥ (not GF) we have a lot of hand types we might want to show 1) Hands without ♥ support (of all strengths)2) (Sub -) Minimum hands with ♥ support not suitable for game3) Minimum hands which don't want to suggest a slam (but partner still might!)4) Hands which are slam suitable but not particularly slam suggestive5) Hands which are slam suggestive (or slam forcing) I am sure you will agree that 1♠ 2♥ 4♥ should be a picture bid (i.e minimum hand no control in minors), rather than any minimum. So you are splitting the support hands up as follows (please correct me if I am wrong) Group 2: 2♠ followed by ♥ support (bearing in mind that 2♠ also covers various hands in group 1)Group 3: 4♥ (if suitable - but most aren't) else 3♥Group 4: Splinter (if suitable - but most aren't) else 3♥Group 5: Splinter (if suitable - but most aren't) else 3♥ (or RKB, EKB etc) It may be that this is best, but it does seem that you are not making the most efficient use of alternative bids. Eric Arend spoke very eloquently for me... so I will be just confirming what he said. First, yes, my type of splitner bid can only work where 2♥ is 100% game force. If 2♥ is not forcing, all bets are off. I don't play 2♥ as nonforcing very often and I certainly haven't spent any time trying to figure out how best to bid in such situations. I do however agree that 1S-2H-4H is a picture bid if 2♥ is game force. If 2♥ is not game force,, well I am not so sure. I use 4♥ then to show extra values without a splinter..but again, I am on thin ice is this unfamiliar territory. I will defer to people who bid this way on the best way to bid. With 2♥ as game force, I split the hands with support as follows... 4♥ = picture bid.. heart support, no first or second round minor control. Generally good heart support at that (else 2♠ then 4♥.. 4♥ is BETTER than 2♠ followed by 4♥. 4♣/4♦ = splinter. A singleton (no void), no control in other minor, generally four card support. The singleton will NOT be the ACE. 5♣/5♦ = exlusion blackwood agreeing hearts... 3♥ = heart support, promises a control in one or the other minor, maybe both, but DOES NOT PROMISE slam interest. Responder defines his hand with use of serious 3NT or not. Responder can cue-bid spade fitting honor here with or without slam interest. I think this approach, as discussed by Mauro, is based upon the sound principle that a splinter bid should be very descriptive. Having a singleton is only one feature of a splinter.. if you use it so show more, to be more descriptive, it simplifies a lot of other auctions, and can often allow responder to place the contract accurately right after the splinter bid. In our cases, signing off with no control in the other minor if the splinter (as it should) denies a control there. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 I see where part of the confusion lies. I was speaking with this in mind: We were playing a sort of Acol with weak 1NT opener and 4 card majors.2H was not GF, but any rebid by opener beyond 2S would have been GF. Whereas you are talking about the optimum conventions in a slightly different set of circumstances. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helium Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 west is 100% to blame Could you elaborate? Was his 4♣ bid an overbid or an underbid, in your opinion? Do you think he should have bid on over 4♥? Eric i think he should countinu whit 4♠now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 Even if we are playing 2/1, I am not convinced! I am sure you have read Fred's post on another thread where he mentioned why Frivolous 3NT was better than Serious 3NT (i.e. if neither player really wants to look for a slam it is better that less information is given to the opponents). I think the same thing may apply here i.e. a Serious splinter is better than a Frivolous splinter. Also, I am worried about sequences like this (I will assume serious 3NT as that is what you were using in earlier posts, but similar things apply to Frivolous): 1♠ 2♥3♥ 4♣ (frivolous) Aren't you at all interested whether the 4♣ bidder has the A? He may be cue-bidding the K, or he may even have a singleton! Now if you cue-bid 4♦ to show your seriousness, partner has to either sign off in 4♥ and you have to then decide whther to bid on, or he bids to the five level thinking you like his ♣K. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 west is 100% to blame Could you elaborate? Was his 4♣ bid an overbid or an underbid, in your opinion? Do you think he should have bid on over 4♥? Eric A useless bid, neither underbid nor overbid. Why describe the hand when you simply need to know about a few aces and trump honors and simple tools to get such info are there ? After 4C the emphasis is on diamond, and west does not need this info. True, it describes the hand, but in this sequience there si no ned to describe, west needs to get info from pard, not give info to pard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 Even if we are playing 2/1, I am not convinced! I am sure you have read Fred's post on another thread where he mentioned why Frivolous 3NT was better than Serious 3NT (i.e. if neither player really wants to look for a slam it is better that less information is given to the opponents). I think the same thing may apply here i.e. a Serious splinter is better than a Frivolous splinter. Also, I am worried about sequences like this (I will assume serious 3NT as that is what you were using in earlier posts, but similar things apply to Frivolous): 1♠ 2♥3♥ 4♣ (frivolous) Aren't you at all interested whether the 4♣ bidder has the A? He may be cue-bidding the K, or he may even have a singleton! Now if you cue-bid 4♦ to show your seriousness, partner has to either sign off in 4♥ and you have to then decide whther to bid on, or he bids to the five level thinking you like his ♣K. Eric Well, I read Fred's post on the advantage of friviolous 3NT.. I also read that he PLAYS serious 3NT.. so there are advantages and disadvantages of each. I don't think I would go so far as to call 4♣ splinter as frivolous.. it is quite serious and descriptive. Singleton in bid suit, no control in fourth suit, four trumps (in general)... I don't worry too much about the four club cue-bid (non-seriously) being a king, it is more important that it is non-serious than it is the king. Opener, with controls in all suits (but perhaps except trumps). Remember on this auction, (1S-2H-3H-4C).. responder lacks AK or Q of spades, does no thave slam interest.. If opener didn't jump to 4C with splinter, his hand is at a minimum, a diamond control (A or K), a four card heart fit, a spade control, probably AK or AQ, and the stiff club. There is a lot of info here...Opener needs all of that to even consider a LTTC bid of 4D with a splinter type hand. No doubt if responder doesn't signoff, then 5HE should be ok even if responder has club king instead of club ace.. at least in my experience with model hands. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 Thanks Ben, I shall carefully reconsider all these sequences. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 Well, I don't want to sound like a preacher... you can choose to play this anyway you want too... And besides, it rare anyone ever agrees with my bidding theories anyway... still ahve trouble finding people to play 2♣ openers the way I like.... Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 Well, I don't want to sound like a preacher... you can choose to play this anyway you want too... And besides, it rare anyone ever agrees with my bidding theories anyway... still ahve trouble finding people to play 2♣ openers the way I like.... Ben The whole conversation was purely theoretical as far as I am concerned. Firstly, I never have fit for my partner, and secondly I never have a slam suitable hand :) Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 I've never though about a splinter denying a control in the 4th suit; not that it isn't playable. I've never read about it in any literature, and I know of no top pairs that utilize it.; again - not that it isn't playable. Somehow, Bermuda Bowls are amazingly won without the systemic advice that many here post; bizarre but true. :) Initially it seems that this restriction makes the call too infrequent; since all of the raiser's values have to be crammed into the opening bid suit and support. We all know how much picture jumps occur (like..never); now we are shoehorning even more of the bids into the auction 1♠ - 2[x] - 3x. One reason I WOULD consider the treatment is sometimes the splinter outranks the 4th suit; 1♠ - 2♥ - 4♦, so we can't cue the 4th suit below game, or launch rkcb without knowledge of a control in the 4th suit. Or, maybe a better use of the call is that the splinter DOES promise a control in the 4th suit. I would think this would occur more frequently that no control. What I have against this treatment is that cue bidding stiffs and voids is verboten in this context, and frequently the only way to show the shortness is to make the splinter. Incidentally, I fully stand behind what I said about the original posted auction. In an ACOL (or SAYC) context; the splinter has to show extra values, since 2/1 isn't GF and 3H isn't forcing. East is still 100% to blame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 I've never though about a splinter denying a control in the 4th suit; not that it isn't playable. I've never read about it in any literature, and I know of no top pairs that utilize it.; again - not that it isn't playable. Somehow, Bermuda Bowls are amazingly won without the systemic advice that many here post; bizarre but true. :) Initially it seems that this restriction makes the call too infrequent; since all of the raiser's values have to be crammed into the opening bid suit and support. We all know how much picture jumps occur (like..never); now we are shoehorning even more of the bids into the auction 1♠ - 2[x] - 3x. One reason I WOULD consider the treatment is sometimes the splinter outranks the 4th suit; 1♠ - 2♥ - 4♦, so we can't cue the 4th suit below game, or launch rkcb without knowledge of a control in the 4th suit. Or, maybe a better use of the call is that the splinter DOES promise a control in the 4th suit. I would think this would occur more frequently that no control. What I have against this treatment is that cue bidding stiffs and voids is verboten in this context, and frequently the only way to show the shortness is to make the splinter. Incidentally, I fully stand behind what I said about the original posted auction. In an ACOL (or SAYC) context; the splinter has to show extra values, since 2/1 isn't GF and 3H isn't forcing. East is still 100% to blame. If you hadn't thought about the implications of the splinter with regards to the fourth suit, obviously then it is not important. :-) As far as the original post, no system was given... and my answer started..."Was 2♥ Game force? I will assume so." and then I gave my assessment. It it had stated that 2♥ was not game force (or sayc), I probably would not have bothered answering. I agree that the meaning of a splinter im a non-game forcing auction has to be different from in a game force one.. So, for instance... 1H-1S-4C is a compleetly different kind of splinter that from 1S-1H-4C... Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Ben: I had tuned in after Jack had posted his clarifications on the auction; your initial post was before the system was given. No big deal; I think we agree on the blame in a non-2/1 setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted October 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 It it had stated that 2♥ was not game force (or sayc), I probably would not have bothered answering. It was not a conscious decision, but with the benefit of hindsight I am glad that I did not stipulate the system, else much of interest would have been lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 A number of dissent views arose about the wey I play splinters in game force situations. Specifically on the auction 1S-2H-4C.... So I thought I would post a few more example hands, grouped by hand type to illustrate the "effectiveness" of this method. I will start with hands where REsponder knows, right way there is no slam. Either because of two quick losers in the ohter minor (my splinter denies first or second round control of the other minor), or due to off two minor suit ACE (responder lacks ace in splintered suit or ace in other minor.. my splinter will never be void and will never be singleton ace)... The auctions shown are real world.. imagine mine would go 1S-2H-4m-4H.... pass in all these quoted examples. Of course you will see how stopping safely and securely at four will work on all these hands. No great feat.. the next post will show you hands were slam is potentially possible after the leap, but how it might be safely avoided.... IMP-980 West Dlr: North Board 1 S K Vul: None H AQJ75 South D J5 North S 8742 C KJ752 S 53 H T H 942 D KT962 East D AQ84 C AQ6 S AQJT96 C T943 H K863 D 73 C 8 South West North East 63.31 49.18 57.68 52.18 Pass 1S Pass 2H Pass 4C* Pass 4S Pass Pass Pass 1. cueOpening lead: CA Result: Made 4Score: 420 Points: -2.00 IMP-504 North Dlr: North Board 1 S QT976 Vul: None H AQ84 West D T63 East S K54 C J S AJ83 H 7 H JT2 D J4 South D A752 C A865432 S 2 C QT H K9653 D KQ98 C K97 West North East South 54.04 49.59 55.19 50.07 1S Pass 2H 3C 4H Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: CA Result: Down 2Score: -100 Points: -5.42 IMP-731 South Dlr: East Board 6 S AQ863 Vul: E-W H KQJ95 East D J6 West S KJ42 C J S T975 H 87 H 6 D Q7 North D AK984 C Q7653 S C 982 H AT432 D T532 C AKT4 East South West North 57.16 49.62 53.37 46.60 Pass 1S Pass 2H Pass 4C! Pass 4D Pass 4H Pass Pass Pass 1. splinterOpening lead: DQ Result: Made 5Score: 450 Points: -1.00 IMP-64 East Dlr: North Board 5 S AQJ92 Vul: N-S H QJ87 North D T92 South S K54 C 6 S T86 H 63 H T9 D J8765 West D A4 C KT9 S 73 C AJ8742 H AK542 D KQ3 C Q53 North East South West 51.58 54.82 40.19 57.66 Pass 1S Pass 2H Pass 3H Pass 4H Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: H3 Result: Made 5Score: 450 Points: 0.62 IMP-905 South Dlr: East Board 10 S AKT86 Vul: Both H AJ98 East D J84 West S 74 C 7 S J93 H Q4 H T7 D KQT963 North D A5 C JT8 S Q52 C Q96542 H K6532 D 72 C AK3 East South West North 46.17 43.75 45.50 42.46 Pass 1S Pass 2H Pass 3H Pass 3S Pass 4C Pass 4H Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: DK Result: Made 4Score: 620 Points: -1.00 IMP-819 West Dlr: North Board 9 S AK732 Vul: E-W H KQJ6 South D QT8 North S 8654 C 3 S JT9 H T8 H 95 D 72 East D AKJ96 C A9765 S Q C T42 H A7432 D 543 C KQJ8 South West North East 49.06 55.17 58.13 53.73 Pass Pass Pass 1S Pass 2H Pass 4H Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: D7 Result: Down 2Score: -200 Points: -3.70 IMP-19 u Dlr: South Board 25394 S K9532 Vul: E-W H AK76 D J54 S Q6 C 5 S JT874 H J92 H D KQ87 D AT963 C T943 S A C A76 H QT8543 D 2 C KQJ82 15-May-04 7:13:31 PM First 7:04:22 PM, Last 7:18:21 PM East South West North 1S Pass 2H Pass 3H Pass 4H Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: DK Result: Made 5Score: 450 IMP-20 Dlr: West Board 32300 S AQ5432 Vul: Both H KJ64 D 94 S C 6 S JT987 H 5 H 9 D KQJ76 D T8532 C AT87432 S K6 C KJ H AQT8732 D A C Q95 18-May-04 10:03:07 PM First 10:00:40 PM, Last 10:10:26 PM South West North East 1S Pass 2H 2NT! 3H Pass 4D 5C Pass Pass Dbl Pass Pass 5D Pass Pass 5H Pass Pass Pass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 The last post of mine showed the speed at which responder can stop after the descriptive splinter I propose.. now lets see how to put on the brakes when uncertainty exist. The first premise is that with no stopper in the second minor, responder will signoff. So LTTC here promises a stopper (obviously) in the second minor and uncertainty about continuing... When responder is uncertain, opener can often just stop.. After all, his hand is fairly well defined. Singleton in one minor, no A or K ior singleton in other, and enough to open. His remaining hcp, obviously are scattered in both majors. The more he has in one, the less he may have in the other.... When he is terrifically rich in both, over the LTTC bid, he will continue...if not, look at these examples... When examining these, forget the real world auctions that are shown.. the bidding would go... 1S-2H-4C-4D-4H- Pass, where 4C was the decriptive splinter, 4D promised stopper in second minor, but uncertainty as to continue towards slam or not. We will see in the next post some hands where over this LTTC opener has no trouble continuing towards slam (I apologize for the alignment issues)... IMP-18 Dlr: North Board 759 S A9863 Vul: E-W H AK87 D 932 S 7 C 7 S KQJT5 H J53 H 6 D A54 D QT876 C J96532 S 42 C KT H QT942 D KJ C AQ84 04-May-04 9:57:02 AM First 9:48:01 AM, Last 10:06:48 AM North East South West Pass 1S Pass 2H Pass Pass 3D Pass Pass 3H Pass 4H Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: S7 Result: Down 1Score: -100 IMP-710 West Dlr: West Board 4 S KQT875 Vul: Both H AK72 South D T9 North S J32 C 4 S A4 H 96 H 85 D QJ874 East D 65 C AJ3 S 96 C KT87652 H QJT43 D AK32 C Q9 South West North East 48.46 57.35 60.61 60.69 1S Pass 2H Pass 4C! Dbl* 4D! Pass 4H Pass 4NT Pass 5H! Pass Pass Pass 1. splinter 2. clubs 3. cue bid 4. 2 kc w/o Q!hOpening lead: CA Result: Made 5Score: 650 Points: -1.00 IMP-263 East Dlr: North Board 5 S A9853 Vul: N-S H A743 North D QT9 South S JT762 C 8 S Q H 9 H K82 D AJ753 West D 64 C JT S K4 C KQ95432 H QJT65 D K82 C A76 North East South West 57.53 0.00 36.91 45.68 Pass 1S Pass 2H Pass 4H Pass Pass Pass Opening lead: CJ Result: Down 1Score: -50 Points: -8.15 IMP-980 East Dlr: North Board 9 S AKQJ8 Vul: E-W H JT85 North D J73 South S T72 C 9 S 943 H A92 H 6 D QT4 West D K852 C Q864 S 65 C AJ753 H KQ743 D A96 C KT2 North East South West 53.85 48.21 46.32 49.74 Pass 1S Pass 2H Pass 4C* Pass 4H Pass Pass Pass 1. splinterOpening lead: C4 Result: Made 4Score: 620 Points: -1.00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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