Bending over backwards

[1eyedjack]

[hv=d=w&v=n&w=sakxxxhkxxxdkqxcx&e=sxxhaqxxxdjxxcakq]266|100|Scoring: IMP

Uncontested

W....E

1♠...2♥

4♣...4♥

P[/hv]

4C was splinter

Assign the blame?

[inquiry]

[hv=d=w&v=n&w=sakxxxhkxxxdkqxcx&e=sxxhaqxxxdjxxcakq]266|100|Scoring: IMP

Uncontested

W....E

1♠...2♥

4♣...4♥

P[/hv]

4C was splinter

Assign the blame?

Was 2♥ game forcr? I will assume so.West hand is all top winners, there is no rush to show spliner. He has frist or second round control in every suit. I would start with 3♥, set trump, slam try.

 

IF EW playing serious 3NT, over 3H, east bids 3NT = no spade control, but slam interest, ... let s follow the auction

 

1S 2H

3H 3N (3N = eerious 3NT, no spade control, slam interest)

4C 4D (4C = confirm spade control, promise first or second round club control, 4D = last train,neutral on diamond control, still slam interest)

4N 5H

6H

Pass

 

I don't blame EAST at all. I give 100% to WEST. Just because you can splinter doesn't mean you should splinter.

[1eyedjack]

We were playing a sort of Acol with weak 1NT opener and 4 card majors.

2H was not GF, but any rebid by opener beyond 2S would have been GF.

 

Out of interest, swap East's Spades and Diamonds, and do you stop out of slam?

[luke warm]

the 'rule of 26' says that if partner splinters add your points to his supposed playing points of 13... if the total is 26, look for slam (maybe that's rule of 28, lol)... either way, with the east hand i'm looking for slam after the splinter

[inquiry]

Out of interest, swap East's Spades and Diamonds, and do you stop out of slam?

No.. probably not. So you will need to find the diamond ACE on side... or the doubleton queen of spades

 

ben

[pclayton]

We were playing a sort of Acol with weak 1NT opener and 4 card majors.

2H was not GF, but any rebid by opener beyond 2S would have been GF.

 

Out of interest, swap East's Spades and Diamonds, and do you stop out of slam?

AKQ opposite a stiff isn't always a big negative; frequently, the other two clubs can be used to pitch diamonds. Give West Axx of diamonds for instance,and these two hands produce a grand.

 

100% blame to East; since 3♥ presumably wouldn't be forcing, so 4♣ does promise extras.

[Fluffy]

If you blame East, what do you think he should bid? he hasn´t got any bidable control (At least to me 5♣ doesn´t show cotrol).

[EricK]

East is to blame.

 

West has made a slam try, and East has a lot more than he has promised. The ♣AKQ are good (but not great) cards as they provide 2 (or 3) discards opposite partner's shortage. The doubleton ♠ is good (much better than eg 3 small would have been). And the trumps are good.

 

Eric

[luke warm]

If you blame East, what do you think he should bid? he´s got any bidable control (At least to be 5♣ doesn´t show cotrol).

i personally don't blame east, i just said that if i held the hand i'd look for slam... i'd bid 4nt

[gabika73]

It all depends on the system and arsenal we use for such auctions. (One usually cannot assign the blame unless knows the meanings of the bids, and the available alternatives...)

 

If 2♥ was GF, West must bid 3♥, no matter what. Especially if there is no Last Train after her splinter: slam is probably good without a ♦ control from partner.

 

The same applies if 3♥ commits partnership to game.

 

However, if 3♥ is invitational only, West does a good job with splintering.

With the jump, however, things become too difficult. If playing LTTC (which is hard to imagine for a pair that can pass 3♥ here... ), East can show her interest here.

 

If not, all she can do is (in order of my preference):

- try 4nt (or 4♠), blackwood, assuming that partner must have the diam A, KQ for the splinter (or K will be behind A, or we'll guess right...)

- try 5♣, slam interest, denying diam + spade control.

- try 5♥, Lackwood

 

So, if 3♥ was available as a forcing raise, it is West to blame: even though her bid showed what she had, she failed to forsee her partner's problems.

 

If it was not, West, having a lot more than she could, signed off after partner's encouragement.

[gabika73]

IF EW playing serious 3NT, over 3H, east bids 3NT = no spade control, but slam interest, ... let s follow the auction

 

1S 2H

3H 3N  (3N = eerious 3NT, no spade control, slam interest)

4C 4D  (4C = confirm spade control, promise first or second round club control, 4D = last train,neutral on diamond control, still slam interest)

4N 5H

6H

Pass

I agree with Ben.

 

However, just to note how well Kickback would do the job here:

After 4N, responder was reluctant to show Q of trumps: 5♠ would push partnership to slam even though they might not belong there.

After 4♠, Kickback, however, 5♥ is just available to show 2+Q.

[Chamaco]

[hv=d=w&v=n&w=sakxxxhkxxxdkqxcx&e=sxxhaqxxxdjxxcakq]266|100|Scoring: IMP

Uncontested

W....E

1♠...2♥

4♣...4♥

P[/hv]

4C was splinter

Assign the blame?

CASE 1: 2H is GF

 

If I recall correctly Fred's article on 2/1, he suggests playing splinter here as "well-defined", e.g. it should show missing diamonds controls.

Therefore, since we are in a force, better proceed slower by 3H and later use serious/frivolous 3NT to show interest.

 

CASE 2: 2H is NOT gf

 

In any case, I believe opener will risk very little using RKCB, when the number of ace and trump Q will be the needed info

[helium]

west is 100% to blame

[pclayton]

If you blame East, what do you think he should bid? he hasn´t got any bidable control (At least to me 5♣ doesn´t show cotrol).

Its pretty hard to construct a west hand that doesn't have a ♦ control. So I'd just trot out RKCB. Kickback works exceptionally well here by the way.

[EricK]

west is 100% to blame

Could you elaborate?

 

Was his 4♣ bid an overbid or an underbid, in your opinion? Do you think he should have bid on over 4♥?

 

Eric

[inquiry]

west is 100% to blame

Could you elaborate?

 

Was his 4♣ bid an overbid or an underbid, in your opinion? Do you think he should have bid on over 4♥?

 

Eric

I will take first shot at this.. 4♣ was a wrong bid... 3♥, set trump, give partner a chance to cue-bid the spade queen, give partner a chance to express slam interest with serious 3NT. There is no reason to hurry up the auction. You have first and second round control of ALL SUITS.. if partner shows any life at all, you can use blackwood. Save splinter for when it helps... here, there is no need to sue splinter.. .in fact, you have great chance for slam even if your partners club KQ are xx's. And even if partners hand was diamond ACE, and club KQJ.. how is he to judge? You are conveying the wrong information, imho.

 

I also agree that probably just raise then 4NT works out ok.

[hotShot]

Are you sure you p understood your bid as a splinter?

 

Even if he knew, the sequence 1♠-2♥ takes a lot of biddingspace.

Bidding a splinter takes away even more. A splitner leaves P 2 save bids, 4♦ and 4♥. He won't show ♣ Control, he won't show ♠control if he does not have the ♦ ace he has to try slam or stopn in 4♥.

You are strong enough to place e.g. a 3♦ or another strong delaying bid. If you bid 4♥ later your p should know much better what to expect.

[EricK]

I will take first shot at this.. 4♣ was a wrong bid... 3♥, set trump, give partner a chance to cue-bid the spade queen, give partner a chance to express slam interest with serious 3NT. There is no reason to hurry up the auction. You have first and second round control of ALL SUITS.. if partner shows any life at all, you can use blackwood. Save splinter for when it helps... here, there is no need to sue splinter.. .in fact, you have great chance for slam even if your partners club KQ are xx's. And even if partners hand was diamond ACE, and club KQJ.. how is he to judge? You are conveying the wrong information, imho.

 

Even if the splinter is wrong that doesn't mean West is 100% to blame.

 

West has made a slam try (surely you agree that a splinter is some sort of slam try), and East has signed off despite being eminently suitable for slam. So East must get some of the blame! But I would go further...

 

If the partnership is not playing serious 3NT or similar, it is very dangerous for opener to just bid 3♥. Suppose partner simply raises to 4♥ with ♠xx ♥AQxxx ♦Axx ♣xxx, are you going to bid on? Because if you are, partner may well have ♠Jxx ♥Axxxx ♦ x ♣KQJx.

 

And can West be sure that partner realises 3♠ should show the Q? Maybe partner will play that it shows delayed support (xxx).

 

If the pair have a lot of well defined agreements then maybe there are better bids than 4♣. But if they had those agreements then they would know who was to blame and they wouldn't have had to post the hand here!

 

But if they haven't got those agreements then what has happened is this: West has said "I have a hand which is suitable for slam in ♥, and I have a ♣ shortage. Are you interested?" and East has said "No". West was right in his description of his hand and East was wrong.

 

Eric

[inquiry]

Well, for once, I think Fred got it right in his 2/1 article Chamaco referred to... Fred said something like.. after a 2/1 GF response, a splinter bid 1) is not made with singleton ACE or void, and 2) Does not include first or second round control of the fourth suit.

 

Here the second of these requiremehts is violated.. the splinter comes in hand not as you change around responders hand, but as you change openers.. let's take a look... Give opener...

 

S-AKQJx H-KJxx D-xxx C-x now the splinter is perfect. IT places the emphasis right where it should bd, the need for a diamond control for slam. Bidding the slam opposite your first example (xx AQxxx Axx xxx) is a piece of cake when this splinter is used correctly. Opposite your second han d(Jxx Axxxx xx KQJx) facing a realistic club splinter, this hand has no choice but signoff.

 

And how does those hand fair opposite a the 3H bid? In both cases, probably would deny slam interest by cue-bidding their minor suit control. On the first one, when the diamond ACE is cue-bid, 4NT leads quickly to the slam. In the second, when over 4C cue-bid, opener will make another slam try with LTTC, and responder will bid 4H. After two negatives (first the 4C bid then the stop of 4H), I think south will best be advised to pass.

 

This type of splinters after a 2/1 GF also allows for picture jumps... chnge opener to AKQJx KJxx xx xx, he can leap to 4H to show no control in either side suit, if he likes (most would bid a tad bid more aggressively, but I think this 4H bid is probably correct).

 

As for how does opener know that 3♠ shows the queen? Well, here is the rules and the problem. 2♥ over 1♠ promised five, so 3♥ set the trump suit. In this case, I play 3♠ not as oh, forget about hearts, lets play spades, but rather as a cue-bid. In opener's suit, I cue-bid A, K or Q, but not shortness (At least at first opportunity). If you want to play 3♠ as suggesting an alteranative strain, I guess that is ok, but it s hould be in a huge hand... if you play 3♥ over 1♠ as fit jump (as I do).

 

The reason opener can not move over 4H is because responder may, in fact hold a hand like.... Jxx AQxxx xx KQJx. Should responder do more than signoff in 4H? Without a diamond control, I think he has no choice...

 

Ben

[badderzboy]

Dealer: West

Vul: None

Scoring: IMP

♠ AKxxx

♥ Kxxx

♦ KQx

♣ x

 

♠ xx

♥ AQxxx

♦ Jxx

♣ AKQ

 

Unfortunately I don't play some of the 'better' conventions but what does West & East know from the bidding about each other's hands.

 

As it's ACOL then

 

1S 4+ spades if 4 then 16+ balanced or else likely to be 4 (7- losers)

2H East has 5 Hearts and 10+ pts (8- losers)

4C splinter West has 5+ Spades 4+ Hearts 3- Diamonds and a low card Club so must have no more than 5/6 losers and most likely 5 given the slam interest as he can bid 4H as signoff?

 

West has show his shape and a good hand so East needs to take charge

 

For the splinter / slam try where are openers points He has at least 12 pts outside Hearts for the slam try as well so assuming he has the King Hearts it could be KQJ S KQ D JH minimum so...

 

I think 4H is an underbid here and as we know 3 of the losers and we can cover them - 1 Club loser covered by A Club & 2 Heart losers so where are the other two obviously spades and diamonds and we can cover the spade loser if it exists so Diamonds are the issue a 5C bid by East lays it on the line I have a good hand but no Diamond / spade control and West happily bids 6H?

 

I'm likely to be wrong but would appreciate where the flaws are in my thinking!

 

Steve

[1eyedjack]

Wow! I go to work, come home and find a hornet's nest :-)

 

Couple of comments for now:

 

I am a great fan of splinters. I do not agree with one comment of Ben's, in that I think that you should stretch to show the most important feature of your hand at the earliest opportunity. 3H shows H support but shows precious little else about the hand. Granted, it is a cheaper bid than 4C and, importantly, is below the level of a serious 3N. However, subsequently to show the C splinter would be more expensive than an immediate 4C, which shows the C splinter and H support in one go. Give East a subminimum xx, AQxxx, Axx, xxx and he can be forgiven for raising 1S-2H-3H to a passive 4H. Perhaps opener should still move.

 

On balance I approve of West's 4C bid.

 

The problem from East's perspective is that a Diamond lead at trick 1 up to his Jxx is marked on the auction, in light of which the question hinges on to what extent is 5H likely to be at risk.

 

Reading all of the posts I think that a LTTC 4D bid by East over the 4C splinter is the best move, so I place the blame with East. I was East :-(

Not playing LTTC I think 5H is a reasonable bid over 4C.

 

Note that whilst the C:AKQ could have been pulling full weight, especially if opener had D:Axx, on this hand the C:KQ were totally superfluous. Holding xx, AQxxx, Jxx, Axx, I wonder how many would have bid beyond 4H with East's hand (or even LTTC). That tends to suggest that West takes a modicum of blame, but I reckon that would be a really "magic" slam to bid, and I am for now content to miss slams that rely on such perfection in partner's cards. I am not content to miss the slam that we actually held (even though trumps broke 4-0 heh heh)

 

For the avoidance of doubt, 1S-2H-3H would have been forcing and show extras. Not that that really affects my opinion as to the preference for 4C.

[inquiry]

Well, what I play is probably a bastardization of what Fred recommends.. his treatment is for responder's raises of openers suit after a 2/1... (see his article on 2/1 GF).

 

His treatment is terrific, with picture jumps, with delayed splinter, and with raise to three level and serious 3NT and LTTC. I use the same principles if opener chooses to raise responders suits, and for the exact same reasons. That is, splinter bid promise the same as responders splinters, leap to four promise the same as responder leaps to four in opener;s suit, and serous 3NT and LTTC still working as well.

 

This is quite effective. While you think the singleton club is "the most important feature" I beg to differ. This hand has a lot of important features, absolute control of spades, an extra trump in support, a fitting trump honor, excellent control of diamonds, and yes, a singleton in clubs. Bidding 4C expresses, in my opinion, perhaps the extra trump (I would like to think this promise four), but says nothing about the great the spades, and nothing about diamonds. In fact, the way I play, it specifically denies a diamond control.

 

What would you bid, with say, ♠KQJxx ♥KJxx ♦Qxx ♣x . I don't know about you, but I would bid 4♣. Why, 2♥ already forced to game. This would show four card heart support, singleton club, deny a diamond honor. But if you will bid 4♣ on this hand, how are you to ever describe a hand like the one in this problem with a 4♣. And if you don't bid 4♣ with this hand, what do you bid? 3♥? Surely not, that would express slam interest. 4♥? That might get across the weakness of your hand, but it doesn't allow your partner to judge how well, or how badly his hand fits.. imagine he holds.. Ax AQxxx Axx xxx and Ax AQxxx xxx Axx.. He will never know what to do. But opposite a descriptive leap to 4♣ (four hearts, stiff club, no diamond control), he can basically bid slam on the first and signoff in game on the second.

 

Now, from the replies in this thread it seems the world probably doesn't bid this way, but you know what? They should.

[Chamaco]

Wow! I go to work, come home and find a hornet's nest :-)

 

Couple of comments for now:

 

I am a great fan of splinters.  I do not agree with one comment of Ben's, in that I think that you should stretch to show the most important feature of your hand at the earliest opportunity. 

 

-- cut --

 

On balance I approve of West's 4C bid.

 

 

For the avoidance of doubt, 1S-2H-3H would have been forcing and show extras.  Not that that really affects my opinion as to the preference for 4C.

I think that after

1S:2H

 

if opener splinters to 4C, he should expect that most probably responder has no diamond control (unless he holds the infamous, never occurring "perfect hand"). But even then, his hand is so strong that he should carry on anyways, so the only reason to splinter would be to keep bidding open with a forcing bid, certainly not to describe (you describe when you want pard to take charge, but here the captainship should belong to opener only, responder won't participate except in responding to pard's inquiries).

Therefore the main flaw in the reasoning, in my view, is that, sooner or later, is slam is on, it will be anyway opener who will take charge.

 

Opener's hand does not need to "describe", it is opener who shall place the contract once he knows of keycards and the trump queen.

The only ones who will take advantage of a descriptive bid by opener, in this case, will be opps, since here it is only useful if RESPONSER describes

 

I believe opener should simply set trumps ASAP, then ask for keycards and then for the trump Q.

Quite crude, but I think it works, for exploring either small or grand slam.

[EricK]

Ben,

 

You haven't really answered the question of who is to blame if the partnership are not playing all these fancy gadgets.

 

Obviously, if a splinter by agreement doesn't show this hand then West is to blame, but if they don't have that agreement then...what?

 

Playing with a pick-up partner having agreed say 5 card majors, a reasonably strong 2/1, splinters and RKCB what would you bid as West?

 

Playing with a pick up partner with limited agreements, if your partner splintered would you look for the slam as East?

 

Eric

[inquiry]

Ben,

 

You haven't really answered the question of who is to blame if the partnership are not playing all these fancy gadgets.

 

Obviously, if a splinter by agreement doesn't show this hand then West is to blame, but if they don't have that agreement then...what?

 

Playing with a pick-up partner having agreed say 5 card majors, a reasonably strong 2/1, splinters and RKCB what would you bid as West?

 

Playing with a pick up partner with limited agreements, if your partner splintered would you look for the slam as East?

 

Eric

If I am playing with a pick up partner, I simply bid 4NT over 2H... they will always respond as if that is RKCB to their suit. WEST has a monster fit hand for hearts, and needs to bid like it. With a pick up partner, 3H and 4H are too risky. And 4C? If random pickup, he might take that as gerber, or lots of clubs....

 

Now, if I was playing with a pickup partner who I felt would understand 4C as a splinter, I wouldn't bid it.. why tell the opponents? If you bid 4C with a parnter with this hand, you will not trust their 4H signoff anyway.. so why tell the opponents. So, again I would not bid 4C.

 

BTW... take a look at the concept of 4C as a picture bid by opener... I think as you construct hands, you will find htis very effective.