Qs about using 4N Turbo

[Jinksy]

1) If you need to know about the trump Q to make 6 a good slam, what are your options?

2) If P bypasses a cue/shows something that thoroughly puts you off slam, and you want to sign off, but now have to bypass 4N to do so (and have an even number of keycards_, how do you do so without potentially misleading p? Do you just have to bid 4N regardless, and trust him to treat it as not necessarily encouraging?

[Zelandakh]

The former is a weakness of the system, at least in the simple form that I have seen written up. The latter is one reason why some prefer Kickback Turbo where this situation never arises.

[semeai]

I don't know much about playing 4NT Turbo, but here are some thoughts on showing the queen with it:

 

With a major suit as trump when we're likely to have had the ability to cuebid below 4M, just having more cuebids at the 5-level doesn't seem like the best use of space. Still, there may be merit in something cooperative which informs about keycards like turbo. So why not use the other bids to mean something useful and cooperative as well?

 

For example (spades trump):

4NT: Turbo

5C: Shows queen

5D: Cuebid in hearts? Hearts was potentially lost below 4S if you use last train. Or maybe "cuebid in the strain we're least sure about"? Could also be denial instead of regular cuebid.

5H: Last train (confirms correct # keycards/Q etc, but still uncertain)

5S: Lack of interest

 

With a minor suit as trump, you have to give up something. Still, just straight cuebids seem unlikely to be the best use. We could try the same (clubs trump):

 

4D: turbo

4H: shows queen

4S: cuebid (or denial instead?) in "most concerning" strain [have strict rules for this]

4N: last train

5C: lack of interest

 

Or maybe we don't want to throw out so many cuebids, but we can pick out which is the least interesting/worrying [have strict rules for this]:

 

4D: turbo

4H: shows queen

4S: cuebid in lower interesting suit

4N: cuebid in upper interesting suit

5C: lack of interest

 

With a "last train" hand you bid one of the 4S/4N cuebids (occasionally you'll have to fake a cuebid)

[Free]

I play Kickback Turbo and like it. We invented this after we had some serious problems with minor suit slams (and sometimes with ♥).

 

Perhaps the best way to explain Turbo, we need to look at the ♠ fit first. You cuebid (usually starting after 3♠), perhaps even use serious/frivolous 3NT,... Once you go past 4♠ Turbo kicks in. 4NT shows an even number of keycards, higher bids are cues with an odd number of keycards. This is probably known to everyone with a little bit of interest.

 

Now some guidelines when Turbo kicked in:

- the player showing his amount of keycards is not the captain, his partner is. Lets call them T (turbo bidder) and C (captain).

- when C knows slam is impossible, he signs off immediately. Now T may zoom if he holds an exceptional number of keycards (for example you've shown 11 HCP exactly with an odd number of keycards, partner will expect only 1 keycard, not 3, so if you hold AAK you should continue bidding). Because of this, if C cuebids further, it means he's still looking for something (from experience, this is usually trump Q).

- T may never bid past 5♠ (in our example) if he doesn't hold ♠Q. Whenever T goes beyond 5♠ he shows ♠Q*. When he has the choice between 5♠ and a higher bid, he MUST bid beyond 5♠ if he holds the ♠Q.

- apart from denying ♠Q, T can only signoff if C skipped a suit in which T also doesn't hold a control.

- C may be interested in grand slam. If he only requires the trump Queen, he can bid 5NT to ask T to bid grand with the trump Q. When T holds the Q in this case, he may bid something else to look for 7NT instead of 7♠ for a top.

 

(*) a considerable amount of extra trumps (usually 2+ unknown trumps) is also a reason to show the Q, even if you don't hold it.

 

Basically, the only way for C to figure out if T has the trump Q is to cuebid below 5 of the trump suit. And that's exactly the problem with a ♣ fit. After 4NT, C can't cuebid below 5♣. Similar with ♦, C can only cuebid 5♣ but sometimes he doesn't have a ♣ cue and he may end up in a slam losing 2 ♣ tricks.

 

With Kickback Turbo you don't have this problem. With a ♣ fit set at 4-level, 4♦ shows an even number of keycards, after which C has an entire level of cuebids at his disposal (4NT now by either player shows a ♦ control). Similar to ♦ fits and ♥ fits. And it doesn't lose any of the characteristics of the original Turbo convention.

[Diogen_]

I play Kickback Turbo and like it. We invented this after we had some serious problems with minor suit slams (and sometimes with ♥).

 

Perhaps the best way to explain Turbo, we need to look at the ♠ fit first. You cuebid (usually starting after 3♠), perhaps even use serious/frivolous 3NT,... Once you go past 4♠ Turbo kicks in. 4NT shows an even number of keycards, higher bids are cues with an odd number of keycards. This is probably known to everyone with a little bit of interest.

 

Now some guidelines when Turbo kicked in:

- the player showing his amount of keycards is not the captain, his partner is. Lets call them T (turbo bidder) and C (captain).

- when C knows slam is impossible, he signs off immediately. Now T may zoom if he holds an exceptional number of keycards (for example you've shown 11 HCP exactly with an odd number of keycards, partner will expect only 1 keycard, not 3, so if you hold AAK you should continue bidding). Because of this, if C cuebids further, it means he's still looking for something (from experience, this is usually trump Q).

- T may never bid past 5♠ (in our example) if he doesn't hold ♠Q. Whenever T goes beyond 5♠ he shows ♠Q*. When he has the choice between 5♠ and a higher bid, he MUST bid beyond 5♠ if he holds the ♠Q.

- apart from denying ♠Q, T can only signoff if C skipped a suit in which T also doesn't hold a control.

- C may be interested in grand slam. If he only requires the trump Queen, he can bid 5NT to ask T to bid grand with the trump Q. When T holds the Q in this case, he may bid something else to look for 7NT instead of 7♠ for a top.

 

(*) a considerable amount of extra trumps (usually 2+ unknown trumps) is also a reason to show the Q, even if you don't hold it.

 

Basically, the only way for C to figure out if T has the trump Q is to cuebid below 5 of the trump suit. And that's exactly the problem with a ♣ fit. After 4NT, C can't cuebid below 5♣. Similar with ♦, C can only cuebid 5♣ but sometimes he doesn't have a ♣ cue and he may end up in a slam losing 2 ♣ tricks.

 

With Kickback Turbo you don't have this problem. With a ♣ fit set at 4-level, 4♦ shows an even number of keycards, after which C has an entire level of cuebids at his disposal (4NT now by either player shows a ♦ control). Similar to ♦ fits and ♥ fits. And it doesn't lose any of the characteristics of the original Turbo convention.

 

Kickback Turbo doesn't solve problem with Q trump if PD skipped C after TURBO KC bid and this bid is 1 step blelow trump suit. Given S as trump suit, example:

4S(Trump S) - 4NT(KBTURBO), 5C (CUE, KC enough) - 5H (CUE, w/o D CUE), ?

In above sequence 5S can be S/O lack of D Control, but also can have D Control, lack of Q trump...

 

Still TURBO is much better than RKCB (enough KC for slam) and KBTURBO is better than TURBO (quick S/O).

 

If you decide to use TURBO/KBTURBO, some convention like Serious/Frivolius NT or LTTC is a must, because is sometimes hard to distinguish between Even and Odd number of KC in case of hands with lot of HCP but low KC and opposite - the second weakness of TURBO. In such case using for example LTTC and continue despite PD negative bid, show unusual number of KC.

[Free]

Kickback Turbo doesn't solve problem with Q trump if PD skipped C after TURBO KC bid and this bid is 1 step blelow trump suit. Given S as trump suit, example:

4S(Trump S) - 4NT(KBTURBO), 5C (CUE, KC enough) - 5H (CUE, w/o D CUE), ?

In above sequence 5S can be S/O lack of D Control, but also can have D Control, lack of Q trump...

 

Still TURBO is much better than RKCB (enough KC for slam) and KBTURBO is better than TURBO (quick S/O).

 

If you decide to use TURBO/KBTURBO, some convention like Serious/Frivolius NT or LTTC is a must, because is sometimes hard to distinguish between Even and Odd number of KC in case of hands with lot of HCP but low KC and opposite - the second weakness of TURBO. In such case using for example LTTC and continue despite PD negative bid, show unusual number of KC.

Your example with ♠ as trumps is extremely rare, usually you set a Major suit at the 3-level, so your entire 4-level already showed you if you lack some kind of control. But it's true that it's possible with a minor suit fit, because these are usually set at 4-level and you have only 1 level of bidding for keycards, cues and trump Q. I didn't realize this before, probably because it hasn't come up (yet). :)

 

The biggest disadvantage of turbo is imo the handling of voids...