1NT opening not always wonderful

[Fluffy]

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Bidding this grand is a piece of cake if you start with 1♣, but what about 1NT opening?

[Phil]

This hand is too good for 1N.

[Cyberyeti]

This hand is too good for 1N.

Agreed, and I don't think it's possible for W to find out about E's 6th club or E to find out about W's J♥, both of which are required after a 1N opener.

 

We'd have a similar problem, would open 1♣ and rebid 1N wide range, subsequently being shown as a 3235 17-19.

 

Auction would go:

 

1♣-1♥

1N(15-bad 19)-2♣(asking)

3♣(17-19 5♣)-3♥(5 of them)

3N(2♥)-4♣

4♦(KC)-4N(2 w/o Q♣)

5N(no kings, Q♣, still interested in grand)-?

 

Partner is "known" to hold Axx, xx, Axx, AQxxx with no other K but 3-4 other points in ♠/♦ (any 19 of this type would be a good one and opened 2N). The grand can't be much worse than a finesse, and could easily be given away on the lead unless they lead a trump as a heart is unlikely. It also can't be much better than finesse/squeeze unless partner has a sixth club. So I suspect we'd only bid 6N.

[aguahombre]

Hey, Cyber: Why can't West pretend his extra club is an outside king with your sequence?

 

And East won't worry about the heart jack, since he holds it.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

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Bidding this grand is a piece of cake if you start with 1♣, but what about 1NT opening?

 

With this holding, Responder is unafraid to "lie" about showing a 6+Ht suit, GF sequence... knowing at least a 5-2 fit :

1NT - 2D!

2H - 3C! ( GF, slammish: either long Hts or real 2-suiter [ 5h/4+c] )

3D!( asks which ) - 3H ( long Ht suit, setting trump; anything other than 3H shows the 2-suiter )

4S!( kickback-RKC for Hts ) - 5H ( 4th step = 2 + hQ )

5S!( K-ask ) - ??

................5NT = sK

................ 6C = cK, no sK

................ 6D = dK, no sK or cK

 

After - 6C

7H ... Opener is thinking 1s, 6h ( on a 3-2 split if partner has A K Q x x x ) , 1d, 5c ( only 5 if partner has Kx and ruff needed to set up)

[Cyberyeti]

Hey, Cyber: Why can't West pretend his extra club is an outside king with your sequence?

 

And East won't worry about the heart jack, since he holds it.

Because he has to cue the outside K over 4N, which one does he pretend to have ? Probably spades is safest, no danger of partner having QJ and thinking this is lots of tricks, not really our style. If partner is looking at the K♠ this will probably confuse him.

 

I would add W pretty much knows from our sequence that partner only has 3 clubs, so the grand needs quite a lot else.

[aguahombre]

I would add W pretty much knows from our sequence that partner only has 3 clubs, so the grand needs quite a lot else.

West is not the one doing the thinking, here. East can count 5+5+2+1 if West lies about the extra king, yet 6+5+1+1 is what he will find.

[han]

Agree with Phil: too strong to open 1NT.

[Cyberyeti]

West is not the one doing the thinking, here. East can count 5+5+2+1 if West lies about the extra king, yet 6+5+1+1 is what he will find.

Yes it works on this hand, but it will get you to some grands on a finesse on others. If partner who "knows" you're 3235 has a doubleton spade and banks on the third round spade ruff for 13 for example.

[Gerben42]

This is a useful lesson:

 

Opening 1NT makes it very hard to find a slam in opener's long minor. You should keep this in mind when opening 1NT with a 6-card minor. Of course if partner is a passed hand, this problem is gone.

[1eyedjack]

Move one of West's clubs to another suit and 6 is still on. Granted, no grand, but bidding 6 with a confidence that is commensurate with its chances of making is not trivial to find after 1N, or is it?

[ahydra]

Why not just open 1C and rebid 3C? Seems perfect for it - the flat shape & poor quality trumps are compensated for by the fact it's just a 5 loser hand not 6.

 

Talking of losers, given some 15-17 NTs have 7 losers this hand is much too good for 1NT :) But if you open 1NT, I think E can probably punt the small slam in hearts after finding out that W has a max. I'll need a gadget to find out if W has 5 clubs.

 

ahydra

[gnasher]

If I were West it would start 1♣1♥;2NT, which still isn't a great auction for reaching the grand slam.

[whereagles]

This hand is too good for 1N.

 

That's not the point. Take away the spade Q and it's still the same grand with a 1NT opener. If you open that sort of hand 1NT, that is.

 

In here opening 1NT definitely doesn't help, as the club length is one of the keys for the grand. But seriously, you either have methods to dig out a long minor in opener or you're guessing.

[mike777]

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Bidding this grand is a piece of cake if you start with 1♣, but what about 1NT opening?

1c then 2nt np yet

[Phil]

That's not the point. Take away the spade Q and it's still the same grand with a 1NT opener. If you open that sort of hand 1NT, that is.

 

In here opening 1NT definitely doesn't help, as the club length is one of the keys for the grand. But seriously, you either have methods to dig out a long minor in opener or you're guessing.

 

Judging from the threads title it seems Fluffy thinks so. Perhaps a lesson we can take from this is don't open 1N with a hand we'd rebid 3m on.

Getting to a grand seems likely after a 3♣ rebid but I confess I probably wouldn't even get to 6 if you took away the ♠Q. That's the tax on opening a 6322 14 count with 1N but I'm happy to pay it.

[gnasher]

I confess I probably wouldn't even get to 6 if you took away the ♠Q. That's the tax on opening a 6322 14 count with 1N but I'm happy to pay it.

 

Is that because you don't think responder is worth a slam invitation, or because you think Axx 10x Ax AQ8xxx would decline?

[Phil]

Is that because you don't think responder is worth a slam invitation, or because you think Axx 10x Ax AQ8xxx would decline?

 

Yes.

[kenrexford]

Actually, 1NT opening works out fine, but IF...

 

I kind of like a transfer followed by 3♣ as a "might be clubs, might be waqiting" call. The idea is to bid this way with slammish hands like this, to possibly agree hearts before a last-resort quantitative 4NT, with cuebids and RKCB if hearts are agreed. You also get the chance to find a 5-3 fit in the other major when that is right. Both goals work perfectly in this auction.

 

The 3♣ call also allows Opener to "agree clubs" tentatively by bidding 3♦.

 

1NT-2♦

2♥-3♣!

 

(3♦ = clubs tentatively agreed; 3♥ = hearts agreed, cues and serious 3NT and Last Train and RKCB enabled; 3♠ = five spades)

 

On this deal, however, Opener will be quite enamored by this 3♣ call and will do much more than simply to "tentatively agree" clubs. Instead, he can venture into the four-level to "super-accept" clubs. This hand clearly qualifies. A 4♣ cue (two of the top three honors and long clubs) works. Responder can then use simple kickback 4♦ to discover the two side Aces and can count 12 tricks. A 5♦ grand move (Kings) will sooner or later get this to the grand.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Actually, 1NT opening works out fine, but IF...

 

I kind of like a transfer followed by 3♣ as a "might be clubs, might be waiting" call. The idea is to bid this way with slammish hands like this, to possibly agree hearts

 

1NT-2♦

2♥-3♣!

 

I agree with you on the use of a "multi-3C!" ... since I used it myself in post # 5.

 

But my followups are different.

Also, I have Opener use key-card...for a number of reasons.. mainly because he is control-rich and has no 2 quick losers when implementing key-card-ask. Afterall, Responder has said he is "slammish".

Also, Opener is the only one who knows about the 6th Club which brings the total to 13 tricks in the absence of the pointy Kings.

 

In your sequence, employing key-card-ask by Responder violates "asking" w/o knowledge of the two-quick losers in the side suits. And then when he asks for specific Kings, and finds none in Opener's hand, is Opener really going to jump to the grand on only the basis of a 6 card Club suit ? Too speculative IMO .

[Zelandakh]

I tens to think that if you are going to the trouble of using a multi-bid then it is best to use 2S for it since it gives you the maximum space to unwind everything. If 1NT - 2D; 2H - 2S is a range ask with either a) a normal 2/4/5NT bid; b) clubs as a second suit; or c) a strong slam try in hearts, you get the same advantages but also get 3C as a diamond transfer and a spare 3D bid as an added bonus.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I tend to think that if you are going to the trouble of using a multi-bid then it is best to use 2S for it since it gives you the maximum space to unwind everything. If 1NT - 2D; 2H - 2S is a range ask with either a) a normal 2/4/5NT bid; b) clubs as a second suit; or c) a strong slam try in hearts, you get the same advantages but also get 3C as a diamond transfer and a spare 3D bid as an added bonus.

Thx again, Zel.... I only wish I had thought of that !

 

BTW, what do you use the 3D! "bonus bid" as ?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 

Responder can then use simple kickback 4♦... and can count 12 tricks.    A 5♦ grand move (Kings) will sooner or later get this to the grand.

I think I see what Ken was driving at with Responder's 5D "ask" . ( Sometimes it takes me awhile ).

 

Opener realizes it must be out of the ordinary since he has shown 15 hcp in key cards [ EDIT: actually ONLY 14 hcp in key cards ( A A A and trump Q --- I mistakenly recalled A A AK ) ] .

Another outside K would put him out of the range for a NT opener.

 

EDIT: Therefore, Opener does have room for an outside K, and the reply to the 5D! K-ask = 6♣ ( no outside K's ).

Edited September 20, 2011 by TWO4BRIDGE

[kenrexford]

I agree with you on the use of a "multi-3C!" ... since I used it myself in post # 5.

 

But my followups are different.

Also, I have Opener use key-card...for a number of reasons.. mainly because he is control-rich and has no 2 quick losers when implementing key-card-ask. Afterall, Responder has said he is "slammish".

Also, Opener is the only one who knows about the 6th Club which brings the total to 13 tricks in the absence of the pointy Kings.

 

In your sequence, employing key-card-ask by Responder violates "asking" w/o knowledge of the two-quick losers in the side suits. And then when he asks for specific Kings, and finds none in Opener's hand, is Opener really going to jump to the grand on only the basis of a 6 card Club suit ? Too speculative IMO .

 

Opener could opt keycard with a 4♦ call himself, if he so chose. However, with the one control spot that is missing being in hearts, the suit that partner showed, this is a fairly safe gamble to take, even if technically "unsound in theory."

 

On the ther hand, I think your theory take is off. True -- Opener is the only one who knows of the sixth club. However, Responder is the only one who knows of the solid hearts. I think one card in clubs is much less important than solid hearts.

 

Also, I did not state that Opener would jump to the slam. I said that a 5♦ move will sooner or later get to the grand. That's wildly different. A possible full auction (depending on methods) might be:

 

1NT-2♦

2♥-3♣

4♣-4♦

answer-5♦

6♣(no kings)...

 

At this point, Responder is willing to commit to 6NT. On route, perhaps...

 

6♣-6♠(grand last train)

7♣?

 

So, a more conservative auction still reaches the grand, IMO.

[aguahombre]

Opener realizes it(5D) must be out of the ordinary since he has shown 15 hcp in key cards.

Another outside K would put him out of the range for a NT opener.

 

1NT-2♦

2♥-3♣

4♣-4♦

answer-5♦

6♣(no kings)...

 

At this point, Responder is willing to commit to 6NT. On route, perhaps...

 

6♣-6♠(grand last train)

7♣?

Because of what twofor posted, I would think 5D was already a grand last train. Opener does not need to be asked twice. Responder asked for kings, knowing opener doesn't have any and knowing his partner knows this is the case.