Using the Force

[gnasher]

Can anyone suggest a good defence to these:

2

♦

= 8-12 one-suited in diamonds, or 4-8 with 5+ hearts

2

♥

= 8-12 one-suited in hearts, or 4-8 with 5+ spades

Responder will often pass the opening bid.

[gwnn]

I think there were some defences posted here:

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/18448-2h-multi

 

but I didn't feel like reading through it...

 

For what it's worth I talked to Jón Baldursson for a short while and he said he would just play

 

x=takeout and

cuebid=natural.

[aguahombre]

If I just sat down and was pre-alerted to that, I think I would just want to treat the opening 2-bid as a natural weak-two and use our normal methods over that. Doubt seriously that when we have a natural heart or spade overcall we will have trouble. Partner won't be raising without support or choosing the wrong suit if we show a 2-suiter.

 

However, I would like to know how responder decides when to pass the opening, and what the follow-ups will mean before choosing what method to agree upon as a defense.

[Free]

I would consider the NF variant (the intermediate) and bid accordingly. Although the weaker variant is probably more frequent, you have to do something. Defending similar to a transfer preempt is ridiculous if they pass a lot.

[semeai]

The bridgematters.com Countering Vexing Bids page seems pretty good for simple generic defenses. A 2H bid weak in one major was one of the examples. This isn't exactly that, but it's very close.

 

For example, over 2H which could be weak in either major:

 

 

 

Double: PTO (or PVS in balance)

 

2S: Natural

 

2NT: Natural

 

3C: Clubs or very short in Hearts (the suit opened), non-forcing. This will always have some clubs so responder can pass. Now 3D will ask hand type, with 3H showing very short Hearts and rest of the bids descriptive with clubs.

 

3D: Natural

 

3H: Natural and some extra values, since otherwise pass 2H and await a balancing double by partner.

 

3S: Natural with values/length to jump to 3S.

 

4C: Clubs with considerable extra values/length or very short in Hearts and considerable extras (18+). 4D asks hand type, with 4H showing very short Hearts.

 

 

Rest: Natural, including 4H.

 

This is basically what Free says (treat it as hearts) but with double being "PTO," i.e. passable takeout (no void or nice distribution with a singleton; see the link for more & follow-ups). Then 3C contains the hands you don't want partner to pass on but which are not too strong (and 4C contains stronger ones).

 

I suppose the logic is that partner should pass with various hands with, say, 4 decent hearts to expose opener's hand, but that you don't want to be doing that opposite a void (or certain hands with a singleton).

 

Added: I see Glen posted about this in the thread gwnn links to.

[hotShot]

If opponents play this weak-in-lower suit or preempt-in-higher-suit, I would suggest to my partner that we use the 2-in-higher-suit bid as T/O for the higher-suit and dbl as T/O of the lower-suit..

[Free]

If opponents play this weak-in-lower suit or preempt-in-higher-suit, I would suggest to my partner that we use the 2-in-higher-suit bid as T/O for the higher-suit and dbl as T/O of the lower-suit..

What if they open 2♦ and you have ♥? Will you comfortably bid 3♥ on a 5 card suit?

[gnasher]

It's still a bit sketchy, but I think this might work (using the 2♥ opening as an example):

 

Double = an overcall in spades, or a takeout double of spades, or any very strong hand

2♠ = limited takeout double of hearts

2NT,3m,3♥ = natural

3♠ = strong (but non-forcing) takeout double of hearts

 

After the double, advancer bids 2♠ if he would have passed a 2♠ overcall. Other bids show a hand that would have bid opposite a 2♠ overcall. My first thought was that these should be the same as what you'd reply to a takeout double of spades, but I think that wastes the 2NT bid - a spade raise that would have bid Lebensohl has a fairly narrow range. Hence we might increase the upper limit of Lebensohl, or use 2NT as an artificial game-force, or play constructive+ transfers.

 

After dbl-2♠, 2NT shows a takeout double or any very strong hand, and anything else shows a good hand with spades.

 

Anyway, so far I quite like this, because I can see some gains compared with defending against natural methods:

- When we have a takeout double of spades, we can split advancer's range into three

- When we have a strong 2♠ overcall, we can show a second suit below 3♠

 

Contributions, comments and criticism would be very welcome.

[MickyB]

I haven't put a great deal of thought into it, but it looks reasonable. While the double may be hard to untangle in competition, it at least avoids the label of "woefully inadequate", unlike any defence to the method that I have considered so far.

[dake50]

I rather like canape weak OR strong overcalls to these 2-way bids.

Leave the only assured "we claim to own this hand" bid is double.

[Free]

It's still a bit sketchy, but I think this might work (using the 2♥ opening as an example):

 

Double = an overcall in spades, or a takeout double of spades, or any very strong hand

2♠ = limited takeout double of hearts

2NT,3m,3♥ = natural

3♠ = strong (but non-forcing) takeout double of hearts

 

After the double, advancer bids 2♠ if he would have passed a 2♠ overcall. Other bids show a hand that would have bid opposite a 2♠ overcall. My first thought was that these should be the same as what you'd reply to a takeout double of spades, but I think that wastes the 2NT bid - a spade raise that would have bid Lebensohl has a fairly narrow range. Hence we might increase the upper limit of Lebensohl, or use 2NT as an artificial game-force, or play constructive+ transfers.

 

After dbl-2♠, 2NT shows a takeout double or any very strong hand, and anything else shows a good hand with spades.

 

Anyway, so far I quite like this, because I can see some gains compared with defending against natural methods:

- When we have a takeout double of spades, we can split advancer's range into three

- When we have a strong 2♠ overcall, we can show a second suit below 3♠

 

Contributions, comments and criticism would be very welcome.

Looks quite nice. Just 1 question: what is 2♥-Dbl-pass-3♥? Playing this as natural seems quite lame because you can pass 2♥x, so perhaps this should be a ♠ raise.

[gnasher]

Just 1 question: what is 2♥-Dbl-pass-3♥? Playing this as natural seems quite lame because you can pass 2♥x, so perhaps this should be a ♠ raise.

I think it would be spade support and a hand that would bid 3♥ opposite a takeout double. With something like Kxx Qxxx Axxx xx you wouldn't want to defend 2♥x.

 

For a a pass of 2♥x, you'd need short spades as well as good hearts.

[gwnn]

What do you do with a 2434 9 count? (Not saying that this type is a hole in your system, I would just like to understand)

[gnasher]

What do you do with a 2434 9 count? (Not saying that this type is a hole in your system, I would just like to understand)

A 2344 invitation facing a double of 2♥? We'd bid 2♠.

 

That sounds like an underbid, but we're still OK, because the intervenor gets another go. With something like a 15-count, he makes another move after the 2♠ reply. We end up getting too high with a good spade overcall opposite a bad hand, but we get some of that back by stopping in 2♠ with a minimum spade overcall opposite a balanced invitation. And we still reach our games, which is the most important thing.

[gwnn]

Did you misread my 2434 or miswrite your 2344?

[gnasher]

Did you misread my 2434 or miswrite your 2344?

I misread it, but I think the considerations are similar. There is a category of hand which wouldn't raise a spade overcall, and wouldn't game-force, but might be interested in game opposite a non-minimum of either type. There are two potential problems with this type:

- After a spade overcall, responder would have bid 2NT or made a weak raise. I addressed this in my previous post - after (2♥) dbl (pass) 2♠, a non-minimum spade overcall moves.

- After a takeout double, responder would have bid 3x, constructive, and opener would have bid game.

 

To deal with the second problem, I've changed the methods after (2♥) dbl (pass) 2♠:

- 2NT = minimum takeout double (would complete Lebensohl) or a very good hand (would break Lebensohl)

- 3♣ = good takeout double (would bid game opposite a constructive three-level bid), NF

- 3♦ = good spade overcall with diamonds

- 3♥ = good spade overcall with clubs

- 3♠ = good spade overcall with six spades

 

Does that solve the problem?

[WellSpyder]

I think gnasher and mickyb are both in action in the English Premier League this weekend, so I hope we will hear if this comes up.

 

Good luck to them both, and to the other BBO-ers taking part, including paulg, frances_hinden, jallerton, dburn, jeremy69 and any others I have forgotten or don't know about.

[Fluffy]

I think you have to vary your defence when they are vulnerable and when they are not. +400 might lose to 5-6 to vulnerable game, but it might also win 11 to -100

 

When they are non vul you hav eto be more agressive

[gnasher]

I think you have to vary your defence when they are vulnerable and when they are not. +400 might lose to 5-6 to vulnerable game, but it might also win 11 to -100

 

When they are non vul you hav eto be more agressive

They only play it when non-vulnerable. MickyB is well known for his pusillanimity.

[Fluffy]

Well I suggest over 2♥ opening that in direct and reopening you play that double is take out of hearts or very strong, and 2 spades is take out of spades. With lebenshol or whatever you use to play against weak 2s.

 

It won't be perfect, but it will put you on familiar situations at least.

[Fluffy]

Did you play against the system already? what defence did you pick? can you tell us some hands?

[MickyB]

We played it this weekend, but not versus Gnasher, that match is next weekend. It came up three times in eighty boards but there weren't any interesting competitive decisions [on two, oppo correctly passed throughout; on the other, the hand over the preempt had a balanced 27-count].

[gnasher]

I now have a two-page defence which I think will work. MickyB's team is currently in 2nd place in our division, and we're 3rd. Would it be unsporting for me to give copies of the defence to all the teams that MickyB hasn't played yet?

[MickyB]

By "upvote", I of course mean "yes".

[gwnn]

You could just post it here and google bomb this thread.