Phil Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 In a new partnership, we've had some disagreement about what certain low-level doubles mean. I'll post each auction, and thanks in advance for the input. Here's the 1st: 1♦ - (2♣) - pass - (3♣);pass - pass - x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanoi5 Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I say penalty. I thought 2-way looked nice but it might lead to terrible results when they supported each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I think this is obviously penalty. Perhaps the percentage of appearing is ver low, but if the opponents know its not on your arsenal it will raise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Since 1♦-2♣-Dbl proved to contain multiple hand types, the only one left which could have a reason to Dbl now is penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunnyGo Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 agree with all of the above. In particular Free's reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 If we can't afford to compete at the 2-level, how on earth can we afford to start competing at the 3-level...playing double as takeout suggests a serious issue with our 2-level structure. Meanwhile, a penalty of clubs may be rare, but it can't be handled any other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_h Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Definitely penalty, but I guess 2-way is possible although I'm not sure what kind of hand I would make a delayed t/o double with that couldn't X or bid 2D/3D on the previous round...maybe a 5530 with a 1 count. Also, a delayed 3D bid probably doesn't exist for me since I don't think I can resist not bidding with support on the previous round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farrnbach Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Penaltyt/o or "negative" would be direct 1D-2C-X But I think this is real rare, and only in pairs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 An experienced player knows that 1♦-2♣ is an extremely annoying overcall. Those players sometimes make that overcall with unsuitable hands. Their pards tend to raise despite knowing this because these days you have to support at the slightest excuse. So in theory there's a "market" for penalty dbls here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 penalty.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I don't know which is the more productive use. Which is the more likely hand to hold ? A pure penalty double with only 4-5 clubs that is not a good enough hand to bid game unless it's your style to trap pass, that wants to make a penalty double opposite partner's void when partner can't double or bid again. A hand not good enough to double first time with both majors, 5521 4 count or similar. I think the second is a much more likely hand to hold, but without agreement it would be the first meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 The question is not just about likelihoods. If we have a penalty double of 3C, we're getting super rich and we have no other palatable action available now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 The question is not just about likelihoods. If we have a penalty double of 3C, we're getting super rich and we have no other palatable action available now.Yeah, but if it's only 0.00001 of the time, I'd rather use the double for the other use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Like I said:The question is not just about likelihoods. I didn't say The question is not at all about likelihoods. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guido Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 I think "standard" is penalty double. At least that would be my assumption unless discussed. In a partnership in which we had the discussed this specific auction, we had agreed that double showed 5H and diamond tolerance and, obviously, not enough to make a positive call over 2C. The theory was that you didn't want to bury the hearts by raising diamonds last round and without spades, a negative double was too risky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossoneri Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Agree that it should be penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 If I couldn't bid over 2♣, there are extremely few hands that I would now bid over 3♣. Note that partner couldn't bid again either, and if I have only 3 HCP, who has the rest??? OPPONENTS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Yeah, but if it's only 0.00001 of the time, I'd rather use the double for the other use. Your opps overbid only 0,00001 of the time? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Your opps overbid only 0,00001 of the time? :)They overbid regularly, but here they will have at least 5 opposite 3 clubs, so partner has at most 5 clubs and often only 4. To want to make a penalty double seems pretty unlikely on this auction (particularly given the filth we open on), and at some vulnerabilities probability gets close to zero. As I suggested above, unless you have a specific agreement that it's not penalties, all normal meta-agreements say penalties, what I was suggesting is that it may be more useful to play this one as takeout. Does depend to some extent on your methods. What is opener supposed to do over 3♣ with a 3343 14 if you play strong no trump, or 15 if you play weak ? Is it not possible opposite your 5521 4-5 that both 3♣ and 3M make ? and I reckon this hand type is a lot more frequent than the rock crushing penalty double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgr Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 Takeout. 5/4=3=1 and around 6 HCP(We play that all low-level DBL's are takeout if opps have a fit) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted September 14, 2011 Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 The question is: If this is a takeout double, what kind of hand would it be that would not have made a negative double over 2♣? If the answer is "It does not exist," then it is a penalty double. If, in a particular partnership, a negative double has to meet some unusual set of criteria, and there are hands which are not penalty doubles that are not able to make a negative double over 2♣, then you can make a case for the double of 3♣ as takeout. But, for the vast majority of players, the only hand that can't make a negative double of 2♣ and wants to act over 3♣ is a penalty double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted September 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2011 I took it as penalty. My partner thinks its takeout. As I remember I held a 3352 which made me think that perhaps it wasn't penalty, but my LHO is a notorious operator and I thought clubs could be 2=4=4=3 around the table, and its not like I had a great rebid anyway. Partner was a 5422 6 count. I still haven't heard a clear reason why a negative double wasn't made on this prior round. Maybe we have different standards for a 2 level negative double. We nipped 3♣ a trick. My LHO was more critical of my partner's double than I was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted September 15, 2011 Report Share Posted September 15, 2011 Takeout. 5/4=3=1 and around 6 HCP(We play that all low-level DBL's are takeout if opps have a fit)What level do you consider high-level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgr Posted September 15, 2011 Report Share Posted September 15, 2011 What level do you consider high-level?7♠ :)Our rule is that all DBLs are takeout unless specified otherwise.f.i: 1M-(p)-2M-(2X/3X): DBL is penalty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted September 15, 2011 Report Share Posted September 15, 2011 kgr don't you play trap passes? what would a trap pass do here? do you feel how much a trap pass would like to x? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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