jillybean Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 IMP NV you hold AKx, ATx, K9x, AJ94 Partner opens.. 1♦ (2♥) 3♣ (P)4♣ (P) ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanoi5 Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Why did I bid 3♣ before? I suppose I'll KC now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Why did I bid 3♣ before? I suppose I'll KC now. Please tell me what you would have bid first round? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 I would have strongly considered 4N quantitative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Hi, 3C would not be my choice, but the bid is ok, the alternative is X.4NT instead of 3C is not quantitative, well it may, but hopefully youand p are on the same page. Having found a fit, having +31 between me an p, we play slam, I wouldgo with 6D - the trouble with 3C is, that the bid should be based on a 5 card suit, so 4C may be based on 3 card support, but p will have5 diamonds ...Ok he may be 4432, holding a weak NT. Take your pick. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 I would have strongly considered 4N quantitative.1♦ (2♥) 4N is quantitative, in ♦'s? And where are you going bidding Q4N on a 4/3 fit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanoi5 Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 X or 3♥. X if there's a way to convince partner we don't have spades later. 3♥ if it primarily asks for a stopper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 1♦ (2♥) 4N is quantitative, in ♦'s? And where are you going bidding Q4N on a 4/3 fit?No, quantitative means invitational to 6NT based on high-card points. If you play some ace (or key-card) asking bid other than 4NT in this sequence, then 4NT is natural and invitational (i.e., quantitative). i would double 2♥. Let partner describe his hand. I will keep the bidding moving forward with a cue bid or other forcing call later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 1♦ (2♥) 4N is quantitative, in ♦'s? And where are you going bidding Q4N on a 4/3 fit?4N is quantitative in NT (quantitative bids never have a suit agreed). in this case it basically says "i would have bid 4NT quantitative over 1NT 12-14. I have 2-3 diamonds, less than 4 spades and a pretty good heart stop". I am not sure if my partners would take it as such, but I think it's the best meaning for 4N. I am a big fan of quantitative 4NT though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 I think 3♥establishes diamonds as trump, for now; but I can live with that. If partner (unlikely) bids 3NT, I can quant it. If not, I can convert to NT later, myself. Might not discover the club fit if opener has four or five of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Agree with 3♣. It does show five but p must have at least four, otherwise he would have bid 3♥ to keep the door open for 3NT. I ask for keycards now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 If you play some ace (or key-card) asking bid other than 4NT in this sequence, then 4NT is natural and invitational (i.e., quantitative). For my regular partnerships, 4N is quantitative in all auctions where we haven't set trumps and where we have a cheaper forcing raise available. Here, since I can cuebid to show a diamond raise (and later keycard), 4N would be quantitative. Double is my second choice, but these auctions can get muddled up quickly after a X (both due to opps interfering and partnership misunderstandings), and I think 4N is both the best description of my hand at the moment and the least likely bid to cause a misunderstanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooltuna Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 6NT.....Hamman eggs in one basket? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 I have no issue with 3♣. No other alternative seems any better. (edited: thx han for pointing out my typo...I originally posted '4♣) Double leads to problems after a spade response. Supporting diamonds, via 3♥, will lead to problems unless partner bids 3N, which isn't going to happen very often. Bidding a quantitative notrump seems very committal to notrump. It also seems to me to be an underbid. Consider a blah hand such as Qx xx AJxxx KQxx....it's not likely partner would move over 4N, and yet 6♣ is a great spot. Having bid 3♣ and got a raise, we are not exactly out of the woods yet. I expect 4 clubs from partner, not so much because he didn't bid 3♥ but because he didn't bid either 3♦ or 3♠, so won't hold 4♠ or 5+♦ unless he also has 4 card support. Having got the club fit, I now use keycard, whatever flavour our partnership prefers. Unfortunately, I know of no method to find out about grand while keeping us in 6♣ so I suspect we'll languish in the small slam whether he shows me 1 or 2 keys and regardless of the club Q issue (if 4N is keycard, I cannot really pass 5♣.....Qx Qx QJxxx KQxx isn't an opening hand and even that makes slam pretty good). I applaud anyone who, knowing what they are doing, bids an excellent grand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 I agree that 4NT is an underbid, but I don't agree that it commits us to notrump. This is a very typical shape and if partner moves over 4NT we can easily get back to clubs or diamonds. I also agree that 3C is reasonable. It's a bit dangerous, partner will expect a 5-card suit instead of a 4-card suit. But maybe this is a hand where the 4-3 fit is best, for instance if partner has xxxx x AQJxx KQx then 7C is the best grand. After 4C I would bid 4D to see if partner can cuebid 4H. It seems too soon for blackwood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Having bid 3♣ and got a raise, we are not exactly out of the woods yet. I expect 4 clubs from partner, not so much because he didn't bid 3♥ but because he didn't bid either 3♦ or 3♠, so won't hold 4♠ or 5+♦ unless he also has 4 card support. I don't understand this part. Are you suggesting that with 4-1-5-3 shape partner should not raise clubs but bid 3S (maybe making it impossible to show club support later) or 3D (shudder!). 3C shows 5+ clubs, I don't see why partner can't raise with 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 I don't understand this part. Are you suggesting that with 4-1-5-3 shape partner should not raise clubs but bid 3S (maybe making it impossible to show club support later) or 3D (shudder!). 3C shows 5+ clubs, I don't see why partner can't raise with 3.Well, it depends, I suspect, on how you handle gf responding hands with 4=6/4=5 in the blacks. I tend to bid 3♣ hoping to be able to back into spades, or hear partner show them, later. This can be problematic.....should partner bid 3N with a heart stopper or two when holding 4♠, or bid the spades, probably losing 3N forever? So I will vary my approach depending on the degree with which I can handle probable auctions....I would tend to double more with borderline gf hands and bid with extra values. If your view is that responder essentially denies 4 spades by the 3♣ call, then you are dealing with other problems. Btw, why the shudder over 3♦? We have people suggesting that opener should bid 3♥ with only 3 card club support in case we belong in 3N. To me, 3♦ on a 5 card suit is perfectly permissible. As for 'maybe making it impossible to show club support later, again I don't understand the point. If we bid 3♠, hear 3N and choose to bid 4♣ on our assumed (for this auction) 4=1=5=3, isn't this a heck of a lot better sequence than simply raising 3♣ to 4♣? And if we were planning on passing 3N, why are we raising to 4♣ immediately, thus abandoning a game contract that we are presumably content to play if partner bids it? The only issue, it seems to me, is if partner, over 3♠, bids 4♦ or 4♠. In the former case, aren't we happy? Does it really rate to matter a heck of a lot which minor we play in? In the latter, aren't we delighted to find the major? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted September 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Akx, ATx, K9x, AJ94 1♦ (2♥) 3♣ (P)4♣ (P) If you ask for kc partner will show 2 w/o QIf you make a ♦ cue, partner will respond 4♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 If you make a ♦ cue, partner will respond 4♥ Oh, no Kickback today? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 IMO partner has denied a heart shortness failing to bid 4♥ with what I think must be at least 4 clubs. This makes grand slam a bad shot in general so be content with keycard + bid 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 IMO partner has denied a heart shortness failing to bid 4♥ with what I think must be at least 4 clubs. This makes grand slam a bad shot in general so be content with keycard + bid 6The OP described 3N as promising heart shortness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 The OP described 3N as promising heart shortnesswrong thread? :) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Yeh, that was the thread on J2N after 1S, then a 3NT rebid. Nice catch, csaba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Han is right. 4N does not commit us to NT. While it expresses our values and shape perfectly, I'd like another heart stopper. With a non-minimum hand with 5♦ and 4♣, I expect 5N from pard. With 5-5, pard can bid 6♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggwhiz Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I like dbl in an attempt to determine pards shape but realize it may not work out. If pard bids ♠ I can bid ♦ forcing followed by a cue and always retreat to notrump. If pard has short ♥ and less than 4 ♠ or a notrump bid the rest of the auction will be smooth sailing. Otherwise I'll scramble and likely have to decide between ♦ and notrump possibly with a nasty guess but I would have to hear 2 "wrong" answers before it comes to that.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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