claim with trump out

[shevek]

Declarer on lead had

 

♥J972 left and claimed.

 

An opponent had ♥10. Declarer admitted she thought all trumps were gone.

Is she presumed to play them from the top?

If no, what if the opponent's trump were ♥3?

 

Apologies since I'm sure this has been asked and answered many times

[blackshoe]

I believe she's presumed to play them from the top. I think there was a WBFLC minute on it, but I'm too lazy to go look for it right now.

[bluejak]

No, I don’t think there is. The WBFLC have said they permit authorities to say they are played from the top.

 

I have been watching how people play such suits for some time. Some people always play from the top, but not many. Most people play solid looking suits from the top.

 

But I do not believe that a large majority play broken suits from the top. For example, with AKQ632 players play A then K then Q then anything.

 

I prefer the EBU approach of using judgement.

 

The actual case is interesting. With J9xx I believe most people would play the J first, though not necessarily the 9 second. With 9732 a lot of people will just grab any old card.

[lamford]

No, I don’t think there is. The WBFLC have said they permit authorities to say they are played from the top.

 

<snip>

 

I prefer the EBU approach of using judgement.

The Laws give the RA the power under 70E2. What did the EBU decide?

[alphatango]

For the record, in Australia (presumably the jurisdiction involved in the OP):

 

In adjudicating disputed claims involving an unstated line of play the following

guidelines apply:

 

(a) Top down

A declarer who states that he is cashing a suit is normally assumed to cash them

from the top.

 

Example

Suppose declarer claims three tricks with AK5 opposite 42, forgetting the jack has

not gone. It would be normal to give him three tricks since it would be considered

irrational to play the 5 first.

 

So declarer gets all the tricks here.

[shevek]

For the record, in Australia (presumably the jurisdiction involved in the OP):

 

AK5

 

So declarer gets all the tricks here.

 

This is not quite the case here.

Low from A-K-5 may be deemed irrational but low from 6-5-2 with the 3 out may not qualify.

Also, in the ABF example, claimer probably knew there were 1 or 2 cards out that would fall under the A-K.

This declarer thought all trumps were gone.

Happy to assume "from the top" but guidelines are unclear.

[alphatango]

They may have done poorly in choosing a clear rather than a borderline example. :) However, I think a declarer claiming all the tricks with only one suit left is equivalent to "cashing" that suit, hence from the top down. (For the record, that means I would also award three tricks to declarer who claimed all the tricks holding 652 as their last three cards with the 3 outstanding.)

[mrdct]

Low from A-K-5 may be deemed irrational but low from 6-5-2 with the 3 out may not qualify.

Also, in the ABF example, claimer probably knew there were 1 or 2 cards out that would fall under the A-K.

This declarer thought all trumps were gone.

Happy to assume "from the top" but guidelines are unclear.

I think the ABF/NZ Bridge guidelines are perfectly clear. The respective ROs of Australia and New Zealand have made an election under Law 70E2 to specify "top down" where there is unstated line of play in a disputed claim. I guess a strict interpretation of the "top down" election only applies when declarer states that he is cashing the suit, but when there is only one suit left I think you are deemed to be cashing it when you claim the rest. It's a completely different kettle of fish if there are still other suits in play as a declarer unaware of an outstanding trump might have a "careless or inferior but not irrational" reason to use a low pip to cross to dummy to cash something there, or do something else that results in losing a trump, but if I understand your situation correctly you are talking about a 4-card ending holding J972 in trumps.

[ahydra]

All the tricks, plus a friendly reminder that if she had held cards of other suits then she would have lost one trick, to declarer. Seems the common-sense thing to do.

 

ahydra