Who won this hand?

[Hanoi5]

[hv=pc=n&s=saj8532h65dj3c762&w=skthqj972d974cq83&n=sq974hkdqt65cat54&e=s6hat843dak82ckj9&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=p1h1s4h4s5hppdppp]399|300[/hv]

 

(I'm not sure who doubled the final contract though)

 

At the other table the bidding went:

 

Pa-1♥-2♠-4♥

All Pass

 

Did South win the board by bidding only 1♠?

Was 5♥ by East too hurried?

How many downs do you think 4♠ would normally go?

 

(26 tables played the hand, 4 played 4♠X, five Easts were pushed to 5♥)

[Bbradley62]

I don't know why you've let West off the hook. It appears to me that he made a preemptive bid when he shouldn't have, and East might be using this information to make unfortunate decisions later. Edited September 7, 2011 by Bbradley62

[daveharty]

EW lost the board, I think both players are partially to blame. I'm not really high on the 4H bid; a 5332 hand often won't play as well as you think, and isn't really a preemptive shape. I would have treated the West hand as a four card limit raise. East would certainly have bid the fourth though, given the chance. Maybe West's bid somehow influenced East's thinking, but I still can't understand bidding on with an excellent defensive hand like East's.

[Bbradley62]

I'm not sure who doubled the final contract though

I hope it was the guy who originally passed his 11-count, not the guy who overbid his 6-count :rolleyes:

 

How many downs do you think 4♠ would normally go?

Mostly likely 2, since it will be very hard for East to underlead his club holding.

 

PS: In my first post, I did not mean to imply that West gets all the blame; I agree with Dave that EW lost the board, and both players are partially to blame, although probably a somewhat bigger part to East.

[Vampyr]

Hanoi5, is this another hand you want to use as a stick to beat teammates with?

 

It's not about whether you win or lose; it's where you lay the blame.

[Hanoi5]

Hanoi5, is this another hand you want to use as a stick to beat teammates with?

 

It's not about whether you win or lose; it's where you lay the blame.

 

When you say 'where' you try to mean 'not who'?

 

I suppose you could blame it on the fact E/W don't have a mixed raise bid available? (Is that applicable here?) Or maybe that their teacher didn't teach them that 5332 doesn't make a good barrage? Or that A+AK+KJ are great assets defensively? That's definitely what I'm trying to find, I don't exactly want to 'beat' any teammates, I just want to find where we should/could have done better.

[Bbradley62]

Hanoi5, is this another hand you want to use as a stick to beat teammates with?

 

It's not about whether you win or lose; it's where you lay the blame.

"What was/were our mistake(s)?" is a perfectly reasonable question to ask if you're trying to learn to not repeat those mistakes.

[rogerclee]

First of all, I thought everyone knew Vampyr was just a hopeless troll, though I thought it was polite of Hanoi to reply anyway.

 

NS bid their hands normally, IMO.

 

As for the EW hands, to me bidding 4H is just bridge and I wouldn't consider any other call. You are favorable and want to push them into a decision of whether to bid 4S immediately (they usually will). Giving north the ability to bid a noncommital 3S is a huge error, especially since we have scattered values and can expect to beat 4S when we have pushed them into it (as opposed to when they were going to bid it freely anyway).

 

Occasionally we are so lucky that our partner can double 4S! That's what happened on this hand, and too often I see people bidding 5 over 4 or 5 over 5 on these auctions when they shouldn't. A singleton spade does not mean you should forget how much defense you also have. Remember that they bid 4S under a lot of pressure, even though they could be cold they are usually down when you have this much defense, since it's normal practice to bid 4S over 4H if you haven't shown support yet. Put in another way, north's range of hands that would bid 4S is really wide, just pay off to them having a distributional freak hand with huge support and collect your number when they just have a random hand with 4 spades.

 

As a side note, my preference is to fitjump frequently on this auction--as a consequence, 4H has a tendency to be bid on a balanced hand. I find that this style makes these kinds of decisions (double, bid, or pass once they inevitably bid 4S over 4H) much easier.

[rogerclee]

lol I just realized I know this hand!

 

Anyway on this auction, HQ to the ace is normal, and then east should bang down the DK to see if they can get a diamond ruff. When west signals either 9 or 2 depending on their signals (denying a doubleton), east has a problem. For now east should assume they have no trump trick, since if they do 4S is certainly down.

 

Assume declarer has 3 clubs for now, since it's basically known he doesn't have 2, so assume south is 6223 (5323 would not give west a 4H bid). This gives our partner 2533 shape. If south has AKxxxx xx ?x ?xx then our partner has really stretched to bid 4H, but I think the declarer's minor suit holdings of Jx xxx is way more likely than xx Qxx (in the second case no squeeze will materialize and we should beat them 1 on passive defense), since the second hand gives partner a paltry xx QJxxx Jxx xxx for his 4H bid, something even I wouldn't do, while xx QJxxx xxx Qxx is a reasonableish stretch. Switching to a club also has the benefit of getting this another opposite the first minor suit holding.

 

If declarer has 4 clubs a club switch can gain (AKxxx xx Jx xxxx) or lose (AKxxx xx Jx Qxxx). These would give partner xxx QJxxx xxx, and either xx or Qx in clubs. Both of these seem like totally filthy 4H bids to me, but Qx is more likely to me--anyway both of these cases are very unlikely.

 

One last case is a hand like AKxxxx x Jx Qxxx, now it is really bad to shift to a club.

 

In the end all of the analysis past the first is pretty tertiary, we have to concern ourselves with the very likely possibility that declarer has AKxxxx xx Jx xxx, this is the most important relevant holding, and we must shift to a club now to beat them. Overall the club switch seems right to me, since on top of this a club switch will always get either 1 or 2 extra defensive tricks when partner has the CQ.

 

On the auction that I saw it was way more obvious to shift to a club.

[whereagles]

West doesn't look like a 4H bid to me, due to lack of shape. 3H seems more adequate. Easier now for opener to stay out of trouble.

[jmcw]

I would not bid 1♠

I would not bid 5♥

4♥ looks normal to me

4♠ probably right at IMPs, closer at MP's

 

I mostly blame East's 5♥ bid.

[gszes]

bidding has gone p 1h 1s and it up to

you holding:

 

KT

QJ9xx

xxx

Qxx

 

we (probably) have 1 trick and our heart holding makes

sure we have 1 or 0 heart tricks on defense. However,

we would actually like to play (3sx or 4sx) if p can manage

to x it. The best way to get an x from p over 4s is to

start with 2h. It is unlikely we have a game if p can

make no further moves and we have conveyed a reasonable

set of defensive values.

 

There is just plain no rush to bid 4h with this hand which

gives p a totally wrong impression of your hand's

offensive AND defensive potential. If you feel the

need to bid 4h over opps 3s (assuming p has not x) fine

and dandy but don't rush into bids when you dont have

a firm idea where you want to go and lie to p in the

process:))

 

 

IMO the 4h bid got the partnership off to a bad start and at

IMPS E took out insurance by bidding 5h when he didnt like the

odds of setting 4s opposite say

 

x KQJxxx xxx xxx or some such:0 I blame the 4h bid 100%

[Vampyr]

First of all, I thought everyone knew Vampyr was just a hopeless troll, though I thought it was polite of Hanoi to reply anyway.

 

Oh really? What an ass!

[aguahombre]

The best way to get an x from p over 4s is to

start with 2h.

This is the best way to get a double of 4S when he has a lot of different hands than he had, double is wrong, and he would never dream you had five pieces in hearts.

 

If there is some kind of mixed raise available to West, fine, even if he later bids 4 anyway. But, walking the dog with 2H doesn't ever work for me and is usually just annoying to partner. If there isn't a mixed raise to cover the situation, 4H has got to be better than 2H.

[Onedown]

[hv=pc=n&s=saj8532h65dj3c762&w=skthqj972d974cq83&n=sq974hkdqt65cat54&e=s6hat843dak82ckj9&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=p1h1s4h4s5hppdppp]399|300[/hv]

 

(I'm not sure who doubled the final contract though)

 

At the other table the bidding went:

 

Pa-1♥-2♠-4♥

All Pass

 

Did South win the board by bidding only 1♠?

Was 5♥ by East too hurried?

How many downs do you think 4♠ would normally go?

 

(26 tables played the hand, 4 played 4♠X, five Easts were pushed to 5♥)

 

Am I seeing a different game than the one I have played for 50 years? Not one post has questioned South's bid of 1 ♠ red against white with a 6 count and virtually no defense vs any suit other than ♠. I pass or bid 2S but I am under no pressure here am I?...2 ♠ is scary also since I have 8 losers at least.

 

4 ♥ is a joke where you are telling p you have a stiff or void and max 9 count. I do not know where I could buy a johnny bench catcher's mitt big enough to catch the rest of the preempts you pull out! You hsve a relatively flat and soft hand but a defensive gem card of the K of s, rich in heart length. I think it is only worth a 2 ♥ bid unless you really overvalue your hand and cue bid which is maybe closer but still with soft values.

 

If they bid 4 ♠you "consider a x" if imps and hammer if mps and if you preempted and bid again you should go back to basics and pray partners don't walk out on you......!

[jdeegan]

:P I am a troll. Some say I am hopeless. On this hand I like the auction right up to the point where East took the push when he shudda passed. He has a good hand for hearts, but that is what a pass shows. West (nvul as we ALL know) has less than bupkus plus a card in the opps suit, so a pass is automatic.

[Bbradley62]

:P I am a troll. Some say I am hopeless. On this hand I like the auction right up to the point where East took the push when he shudda passed. He has a good hand for hearts, but that is what a pass shows. West (nvul as we ALL know) has less than bupkus plus a card in the opps suit, so a pass is automatic.

So, your answer is that E/W "should" let N/S play 4♠ undoubled?

[aguahombre]

Remember, West is Roger, and he will do the doubling :rolleyes:

[Bbradley62]

Am I seeing a different game than the one I have played for 50 years? Not one post has questioned South's bid of 1 ♠ red against white with a 6 count and virtually no defense vs any suit other than ♠.

Actually, two of us have...

... the guy who overbid his 6-count :rolleyes:

I would not bid 1♠

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

in general making an 1S or a 2S overcall is quite often a tactical decision,

but given the colors, I dont think, that the hand is worth 2S.

And given the colors, I also think, that North can raise 2S to 4S, he has

at least 3 tricks for p.

Raising to 4S is not clear cut, but this is an option.

 

On the other hand, raising 1S to 4S is not an option for me.

 

Additionnally, I dont care a lot for the 4H bid, but this could be a matter of

agreements, that are in place.

If West showes a constructive raise, than East wont be inclined to bid 5H.

 

So to answer your question - 4S was successfull due to luck and missing E/W

agreements.

 

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[gnasher]

The only action I really hate is 5♥. East has lots of defence, no extra trump length, and no reason to think he can make eleven tricks.

 

You can criticise 4♥ and 1♠ for stylistic reasons, but both of them worked: 4♥ pushed the opponents into something that was going for 800, and 1♠ led to +50 when the opponents had a game on. If you push the opponents around, they're more likely to make a mistake.

[rhm]

The only action I really hate is 5♥. East has lots of defence, no extra trump length, and no reason to think he can make eleven tricks.

 

You can criticise 4♥ and 1♠ for stylistic reasons, but both of them worked: 4♥ pushed the opponents into something that was going for 800, and 1♠ led to +50 when the opponents had a game on. If you push the opponents around, they're more likely to make a mistake.

To say the 4♥ bid "worked" seems to me a strange interpretation to what happened at the table.

But of course if you find 4♥ defensible you must find 5♥ indefensible.

Unfortunately feeding your partner with wrong information, does not make it likely that he will find the best bid.

I prefer Pass to 5♥ but consider it close after the 4♥ bid. If South has ♣AQ you may not have that many defensive tricks.

DBL is dubious after the 4♥ raise and from East perspective you are not getting rich by playing 4♠ undoubled. .

I do not criticize 4♥ for "stylistic" reasons, but because the offensive value of the hand is too low and the defensive value of the hand is too high for preempting with 4♥.

Even Larry Cohen would have corrected the LAW here. Favorable vulnerability is no license for overbidding with the wrong hands.

If West would have bid 3♥ (not ideal, but much better in my opinion), North would probably bid 3♠ and East 4♥.

If opponents now bid on East can double, which in my book is only a suggestion after West has raised, but which West would gladly accept here.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[jdeegan]

So, your answer is that E/W "should" let N/S play 4♠ undoubled?

:P Alas, South's semi-psychic 1♠ overcall has worked. At least I'm going to get 300 as against 420 in 4♥. I'm missing out of +800 but not losing 100 in 5♥. Many would say that West has to bid 5♥ or double on the grounds that when opps bid over our freely bid game he must not pass. In that case, we get 800 since given that choice West has a clear double.

[Onedown]

Actually, two of us have...

Right, my bad. I REALLY think the complete auction is less (very) than solid bridge. No offense to anyone!

[gnasher]

To say the 4♥ bid "worked" seems to me a strange interpretation to what happened at the table.

But of course if you find 4♥ defensible you must find 5♥ indefensible.

Unfortunately feeding your partner with wrong information, does not make it likely that he will find the best bid.

I prefer Pass to 5♥ but consider it close after the 4♥ bid. If South has ♣AQ you may not have that many defensive tricks.

DBL is dubious after the 4♥ raise and from East perspective you are not getting rich by playing 4♠ undoubled. .

If you bid 5♥ as East, what sort of dummy would you be hoping for?