Annoying Michaels

[mr1303]

[hv=pc=n&s=sqj4haj4dak43ct93&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=1d2d]133|200[/hv]

 

What say you? 2D was both majors...

[mgoetze]

Double is likely to be reasonable for any of several understandings as to what it might mean. Can't really fault 3NT either, though.

[Hanoi5]

Double is for profit, but we're red, they're white: 3NT.

[Siegmund]

3NT looks like a good practical bid at this vulnerability. The axe is at the ready if they choose not to let us play it.

[JLOGIC]

I would show a forcing raise in diamonds. We could easily belong in a diamond slam, and if partner wants to bid NT then I would prefer to play it from his side (heart lead and he has the Q for instance, or if he has Axx of spades...not to mention if a club is the right lead LHO will have an easier time doing it than RHO). On top of that if partner has a stiff in a major it is not hard to imagine 5D being better than 3N (I am assuming imps, not specified).

 

It is possible that we will make their lead decision easier by going slower but I don't think that warrants masterminding it at such an early stage in the auction when we know very little.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Same as Justin ....

2S! ( Un-Un ) = limit+ raise for Diam

[Siegmund]

I'd like to get 3NT played from partner's side, but have a hard time believing I am ever going to get him to bid it.

[JLOGIC]

I'd like to get 3NT played from partner's side, but have a hard time believing I am ever going to get him to bid it.

 

It would not be surprising if partner had one honor in both majors. That said, what is the downside of bidding 2S (or whatever your methods), and seeing if partner has a 2N bid? I don't understand the rush to bid 3N, we have a fine hand for a diamond slam, and a fine hand for partner to bid NT IF he wants to. Of course, if partner doesn't want to bid NT, it might be right to play from our side, imagine LHO with Hxx of hearts and RHO with HT9xx.

[Siegmund]

There's no real downside to going slow (giving LHO an easy 3M bid isnt doing much damage since LHO was going to get to lead his better major against my 3NT anyway.) Long as you think you can convince your partner later that you seriously liked the idea of 3NT, and not some oddball hand that only had 3NT as a fallback position if it didn't like opener's rebid.

 

I'm just not seeing the big upside to going slow either. Partner is allowed to bid over 3NT if he thinks slam is a possibility opposite a 4333 13-15 pointer, too. Put another way, what had DOES bid an immediate 3NT if 4333 13-15 pointers don't? OK, my 15 points could have all been in kings and queens rather than having, especially, the HA.

 

I have no big complaint with 2S. I just am happy to get my whole hand off my chest in one bid. (And one time I WILL be better placed is if LHO chooses 4M next - p knows I have a trump trick to aid him in the 5m/6m vs X decision, and will have a forcing pass available that he might not if it goes 2S(limit+)-4M. )

[Phil]

I can't show a balanced forcing raise in diamonds in standard Michaels defense afaik.

[aguahombre]

I can't show a balanced forcing raise in diamonds in standard Michaels defense afaik.

no, but you can show a limit+ for diamonds and see where the thing is going. Doesn't really matter, I don't think whether you can show everything all at once.

[Phil]

no, but you can show a limit+ for diamonds and see where the thing is going. Doesn't really matter, I don't think whether you can show everything all at once.

 

I can show major stoppers and I can show a splinter in a major.

 

How do I show a diamond raise?

[ArtK78]

2♠ is played by many as a limit or better raise of diamonds - so-called Unusual over Michaels. 2♥ would have shown a constructive club bid while 3♣ directly would have been to play.

[MrAce]

I can show major stoppers and I can show a splinter in a major.

 

How do I show a diamond raise?

 

As Arty said, 2♠, u still have room for stoppers at 3 level.

 

The way we play it, 3♦ weak hands, 2♠ gf ♦ hands, DBL invitation hands or will make penalty dbl.

[JLOGIC]

I can show major stoppers and I can show a splinter in a major.

 

How do I show a diamond raise?

 

Prioritizing your 2 cuebids as showing a stopper and saying nothing about suit lengths seems extremely bizarre for your first bid of the auction. It is easy to see how if the opponents bid at all you will be in trouble. Even if they pass, it's easy to see this approach not working out.

[Fluffy]

My standard defence is that both 2♥ and 2♠ show diamond raise showing stopper in the suit bid while 3♣ is forcing, is this outdated? do you think this is much worse than the unnusual thing?

[gnasher]

My standard defence is that both 2♥ and 2♠ show diamond raise showing stopper in the suit bid while 3♣ is forcing, is this outdated? do you think this is much worse than the unnusual thing?

It means you can't make a non-forcing bid in clubs (unless you're using 2NT for that?)

 

With double, 2♥, 2♠, 2NT, 3♣ and 3♦ available, it ought to be possible to show all the hands you want.

[P_Marlowe]

3NT.

 

We are red, they are green, we need to beat 2M -4, so that we have a profit.

Try to teach them, that they revealed to much.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[aguahombre]

My standard defence is that both 2♥ and 2♠ show diamond raise showing stopper in the suit bid while 3♣ is forcing, is this outdated? do you think this is much worse than the unnusual thing?

 

 

It means you can't make an invitational bid in clubs (unless you're using 2NT for that)

 

With double, 2♥, 2♠, 2NT, 3♣ and 3♦ available, it ought to be possible to show all the hands you want.

I think you two are both right on, and the two posts complement each other to clarify the whole structure. However, I took the liberty of changing a word in Gnasher's to distinguish between 3C and 2NT. The players could choose which is invite and which is drop-dead.

[Finch]

It means you can't make a non-forcing bid in clubs (unless you're using 2NT for that?)

 

With double, 2♥, 2♠, 2NT, 3♣ and 3♦ available, it ought to be possible to show all the hands you want.

 

Here are the hand types I would like to show with those actions:

 

- interest in penalising

- clubs non-forcing (constructive)

- clubs forcing

- game forcing diamond raise

- limit diamond raise

- weak diamond raise

- fit bid in clubs

 

That's 7 hand types and 6 calls, so I still can't quite do it.

[i combine limit in diamonds and FG in diamonds in the standard way to use 2S as limit+, but I'm not convinced that's totally ideal; there's something to be said for giving up the club semi-fit bid (3-5 or 4-5, which we use 2NT for) in favour of showing FG values at once when partner has opened a minor]

[gnasher]

I think it's better to combine a weak hand with a game-forcing one. You can do that with each minor, so you can show three strengths of each, eg:

 

double = interest in penalising

2♥ = clubs, game-forcing or weak

2♠ = diamond support, game-forcing or weak

2NT = clubs with secondary diamonds

3♣ = clubs, invitational

3♦ = diamond support, invitational

[whereagles]

Well, I like my major suit honors enough to go for 3NT right away.

[JLOGIC]

It means you can't make a non-forcing bid in clubs (unless you're using 2NT for that?)

 

With double, 2♥, 2♠, 2NT, 3♣ and 3♦ available, it ought to be possible to show all the hands you want.

 

It also means he can't raise diamonds if he has no stopper in a major, surely this comes up sometimes?

[ggwhiz]

With my pard a 3nt bid shows specifically 4 x 3 13-15. I can bid 2♠ as limit + for ♦ but it denies this shape so I'm not sure I want to. We start double with anything else.

 

3nt also shows my major suit cards so I'm happy going forward if pard takes a move.

 

That's just our current agreement with room for improvement.

[menggq]

1D 2D ?

 

1.2H=H STOPPER 10P+,3NT TRY

2.2S=S STOPPER 10P+,3NT TRY

3.2N=10-11P S/H STOPPER BUT NOT STRONG OTHERWISE DBL,IMPLY D FIT.

4.3C=INV 9-11P C6+ OR GOOD C5

5.3D= D FIT 7-11P

6.3H/3S=SPL GF

7.3N=11-16P S/H STOPPER BUT NOT STRONG ENOUGH OTHERWISE DBL,IMPLY D FIT

8.DBL=10P+ OTHERS

 

Here i prefer DBL...