Trick Two Defence

[nigel_k]

[hv=pc=n&n=sak965hq852dq5ckt&e=s3hj93dak2ca86542&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=2s(5S/4+minor%20weak)p4sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

IMP scoring. Partner leads the ♣Q - K, A, 3. Over to you.

 

South's opening is weak with 5♠ and 4+ minor.

[rduran1216]

[hv=pc=n&n=sak965hq852dq5ckt&e=s3hj93dak2ca86542&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=2s(5S/4+minor%20weak)p4sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

IMP scoring. Partner leads the ♣Q - K, A, 3. Over to you.

 

South's opening is weak with 5♠ and 4+ minor.

 

2 of clubs back seems very clear. plan to play a low heart when I get in with K of diamonds.

[the_clown]

I am playing the A of ♦. Partner will discourage if he wants a ♣ ruff, he could have lead from QJxx. If he discourages I will play the 2 of ♣ as suit pref. Playing low ♣ would be a disaster if declarer has a singleton and discards a losing ♦. If he encourages, I will play onother top ♦ and exit with a ♥. If p has an honour we are getting 4 tricks.

 

With my partner we have the agreement we always give SP when an ace is lead so after the ace of diamonds partner will surely tell me what is right.

 

So instead of guessing I will listen to partner's signal.

 

 

If you were playing rusinow leads u wouldnt have a problem at all :)

[jmcw]

Given the auction I would expect partner to be leading from length, QJ9 or QJ97. I see no future in returning a ♣, and it may turn out badly if P has led from Qx.

On the other hand, if partner has a stiff ♣Q (unlikely) he can ruff. Simple solution is to cash ♦ K and switch back to ♣ or ♥ at trick 3.

[bd71]

I don't think I want to lead a ♣ back immediately.

 

It's clearly most likely that South has 4♦s, in which case the hand seems to me to hinge on whether South has another loser in ♣ or ♥. If he does, I don't think there's anything he can do about it, so it really doesn't matter what we do. I guess in a bizarro scenario South can hold AK♥ tight, so we need to lead a ♣ before a ♥. But we are at liberty to cash a ♦ even in this bizarro scenario.

 

But couldn't South also hold 4♣s, with partner having led the singleton Q♣? If so, I think we want to lead the A♦ and then play ♣...if partner can ruff, then he knows to come back in ♦ rather than ♥. The disaster scenario is that an immediate ♣ return gives partner the ruff, but if he returns a ♥ and South has A♥, then trump is pulled, and ♦ loser/losers in dummy are discarded on ♣ winners.

 

Either way, playing A♦ then a ♣ works, so that's the plan.

 

Edit: forgot to say that I'm listening to partner's attitude signal on the AD, and if he encourages I'm cashing the King as well.

[Foxx]

♦K, ♦A, club.

[rduran1216]

♦K, ♦A, club.

 

QJxxx

Axx

x

J9xx

 

 

We've just tossed the contract in the ocean by trying to cash our diamonds

 

The only way a club fails is if declarer was 5404, but is this hand really consistent with the auction?

 

@the clown - You didn't read the auction. If declarer has a stiff club then he has 4 diamonds and 3 hearts, and isn't dumping a loser.

 

Small club is clear

 

edited for accuracy.

[shyams]

Trick 2: ♦K. Partner gives count (is this a count situation?)

 

If partner shows odd number of ♦s, I switch to ♥9.

If partner gives an even count, I can cash ♦A before trying to give partner a ♣ ruff.

[shyams]

QJxxx

Axx

J10xx

x

 

We've just tossed the contract in the ocean by cashing our diamonds

 

The only way a club fails is if declarer was 5404, but is this hand really consistent with the auction?

 

@the clown - You didn't read the auction. If declarer has a stiff club then he has 4 diamonds and 3 hearts, and isn't dumping a loser.

 

Small club is clear

Dummy has 4 heart cards. discarding two on the J and 10 does not avoid the heart loser

[rduran1216]

Dummy has 4 heart cards. discarding two on the J and 10 does not avoid the heart loser

 

ah, correct. my apologies. Still there's no urgency on cashing diamonds.

 

however if we cash one diamond then switch to heart and partner led a stiff, we have blown the defense when declarer is 5314.

[nigel_k]

Club also fails if partner started with QJ doubleton and doesn't find the diamond switch.

[MrAce]

 

 

Edit: forgot to say that I'm listening to partner's attitude signal on the AD, and if he encourages I'm cashing the King as well.

 

What attitude signal are you talking about ? You have AK ♦ and dummy has Q, what makes you think partner will know you have AK and will signal accurately if u start with A? If you are going to play ♦ at trick 2, this should be K, this way pd will not worry about signalling for the ♦ suit but for ♥ or ♣.

[rduran1216]

Club also fails if partner started with QJ doubleton and doesn't find the diamond switch.

 

why wouldn't he find a diamond switch when i hold a card as emphatic as the 2 to lead back?

[shyams]

Club also fails if partner started with QJ doubleton and doesn't find the diamond switch.

Declarer would then have a 5-1-4-3 holding and our diamond tricks will score eventually.

[MrAce]

There are dangers in this hand for defense

 

1- If pd has something like xx Kxx Jxxxxxx Q, then cashing 2♦ at T2 and 3 will let declarer make 4♠, since pd will not take his ♣ ruff.

 

2- If pd made a lousy lead from Qx ♣, playing back ♣ immediately will let declarer make 4 ♠, because he can discard a ♦ on 3rd ♣ (Unlikely but assume declarer has QJxxx K JT9x Jxx )

 

3- Playing ♥ after ♦K if pd shows odd number of ♦ (as Shyams suggested) will let declarer make if he has Qxxxx A xxx Jxxx or QJxxx Axx x Jxxx

 

4- Cashing the ♦K at T2 and playing ♣ has also danger, if declarer has QJxxx Ax Jxxxx x, since we pretty much say bye bye to our ♥ trick.

 

Among all these, the least likely scenario seems to me the #2. Imo playing ♣ back (2) is the right move.

[phil_20686]

if parther had Qx clubs and Kxx(xx) hearts, he would definately have lead a heart on this auction imo

[kenberg]

Misread problem, analysis withdrawn.

[nigel_k]

Here's my analysis:

 

Declarer is unlikely to have six spades because with a weak four card minor he would probably have opened a multi instead of the two suited opening. Declarer can't have a heart void given the lead so let's also assume declarer has ♥A otherwise he is probably down. Also if declarer is 5242 or 5341 he appears to be down on any defence. So the shapes we need to consider are:

 

A 5143 - Partner would not lead from Qx but might from QJ. We need to take our diamonds before declarer establishes ♣9 for a diamond discard.

B 5152 - Declarer may establish diamonds for a club discard

C 5251 - Declarer may establish diamonds for a heart discard

D 5134 - We need to cash diamonds and take our club ruff

E 5314 - We need to cash one diamond and take our club ruff

F 5224 - We can either cash both diamonds or just one plus a club ruff

 

Line 1: Cash ♦K and lead a club. This works on all except C. Cashing both diamonds doesn't gain and loses in E.

Line 2: Switch to a club immediately. This handles everything except in case A it may be tough for partner to find the diamond switch, especially if he has the jack.

 

Anyway at the table I chose line 2 and it was case A. Particularly annoying as declarer had a rather horrible Qxxxx A 10xxx 9xx. I unthinkingly returned ♣2 but ♣8 is better and partner would probably have got it right.

[kenberg]

Oh my. I saw the "over to you" and did not realize there was more! I was taking 2♠ as a typical crappy weak 2.

 

I withdraw all of the analysis. Except that I would still never lead the ace of ♦ at trick 2. I see that we agree that if a diamond is led it will be the king.

 

I will now humbly retreat.

[Finch]

Dummy has 4 heart cards. discarding two on the J and 10 does not avoid the heart loser

 

but if declarer is 5251 you need to play a heart back before cashing the second diamond

[gnasher]

Anyway at the table I chose line 2 and it was case A. Particularly annoying as declarer had a rather horrible Qxxxx A 10xxx 9xx. I unthinkingly returned ♣2 but ♣8 is better and partner would probably have got it right.

 

If you return ♣8 and partner ruffs it, he will assume you have given suit-preference, because that's what we do when we're giving a ruff. Then he will return a heart, declarer will claim, partner will very deteminedly not say anything, and all the kibbitzers will leave.

 

On the actual layout, partner should realise that you may not know what declarer's suit is, so you may have thought he was ruffing. Then he should infer that ♣2 was suit preference, and play a diamond.

[whereagles]

I refuse to comment on defense threads until someone fixes the dammned compass.

[inquiry]

It is a shame whereagles isn't going to participate. This hand offers some interesting defensive communication possibilities.

 

Given the auction I would expect partner to be leading from length, QJ9 or QJ97. I see no future in returning a ♣, and it may turn out badly if P has led from Qx.

On the other hand, if partner has a stiff ♣Q (unlikely) he can ruff. Simple solution is to cash ♦ K and switch back to ♣ or ♥ at trick 3.

 

Given that nobody would lead the ♣Q from ♣Qx, a club back never automatically allows declarer to make a hand that could not be made, regardless of partner having 1, 2, 3, or 4 clubs. A low club back might give partner a problem with ♣QJ doubleton. Should he try a heart or a diamond? A heart return by partner allows it to make. If partner has ♣QJx he can even lead away from the ♥King as declarer will have a stiff heart ace, so no harm. Should he lead the ♥King, it still doesn't matter as one diamond pitch does declarer no good.

 

Cashing the ♦ at trick two will never allow declarer to make a hand that could not be made. The problem is after you cash a diamond you have to play accurately, depending upon what declarer holds. If declarer is 5♠-♥Ax-♦Jxxxx-♣x you have to switch to the ♥x NOW or he makes. If he is 5♠-♥A-♦Jxxxx-♣xx you can afford to lead a heart now, but have to cash your club next time you get in.

 

Defensively, cashing the ♦King then shifting to a club, solves the problem in the first paragraph. Partner will know to return a diamond. Cashing the ♦King and shifting to a club in the second kills the defense you need to return a heart. But if partner has a singleton club, you needed to give him his club ruff.

 

So BOTH defenders have to consider the sequence of plays that get the job done regardless if partner holds any of these problem hands. The answer so many seem to think is clear is to return the ♣2 at trick two as "suit preference". But is this true? Would the ♣2 be suit preference or would it be "original count" (4th best), regardless of partners club holding. I think reading the ♣2 as suit preference is a stretch. Even club 8 back isn't helpful and can be misread.

 

What do we as EAST know about partner's hand?

1. He does not have ♥AK or he would have started with one of those, so declarer has at least one heart honor.
2. Partner has AT LEAST three diamonds (or declarer has six and will make if his heart honor is the ACE), and go down otherwise.
3. Partner has Q, QJ, QJx or QJxx of ♣'s
4. Partner has 3, 4, or 5 hearts (he can not have 6 or 2 ♥'s)

Would cashing the ♦K at trick two (which will get partner on the right page as to what to return when he gets in on second round of clubs) get you the information you need? the_clown was on the right track when he said in his partnership when he leads the ace, his partner gives suit preference. Well, that specific agreement seems STRANGE to me as a hard and fast rule. But here, on this hand, when you lead the ♦King, attitude is not useful, so partner will need to give either suit preference or count. I think here, where it looks like you might score at least three minor suit tricks, suit preference is the most important. Partner will play his highest diamond (and with three I hope we can read it) if he a.) can not ruff clubs, and b.) has a heart honor. Otherwise he will play a low ♦ (and always if he had a singleton ♣).

 

Some thought of this defense above, and any hand where declarer has 4♣ this defense will be "killer". But no one carried the defense out to solve the problem when declarer has either 5-1-5-2 versus 5-2-5-1 when holding the heart ace, and partner signals he has the heart king under the diamond king.

 

REAL SOLUTION

There is an obvious solution to this problem, however. When partner signals for a heart shift when you cash the ♦king (and with 3 diamonds, hopefully we can work his signal out), his signal under declarer's ♥A will have to be further "attitude". With five hearts, partner will now discourage in hearts. The reason being, your low card is from 3 or 4 (or possibly a singleton). Once declarer wins the heart ACE, it can only be from three so declarer is "out" so he will want you to shift back to a club. If you had a singleton, you couldn't lead another one anyway, so a negative attitude is still right.

 

If partner has three hearts to the king, and you lead low, he will signal attitude again, this time, he will want you to continue hearts. Because rather you had three or four hearts for your low heart lead, declarer will have another heart.

 

If partner has four hearts, the situation is not clear to him what you should do next. The idea here is for partner to give an ambivalent signal in hearts (not his King, not his lowest spot, not his highest non-king heart).

 

I use UDCA so the way these signals would work is this. With FIVE hearts excluding the ACE, partner would play the TEN from KT764, that signal would be clear an unambiguous. I would lead a club next when in with the ♦A. Playing standard partner would play the 4, again very clear.

 

If partner has three hearts to the King, the play will be equally clear to you. With.

KT7, play the 7 (udca) or T (standard)

K64, play the 4 (udca) or 6 (standard)

 

If partner has four heart to the king, he wants you to continue hearts IF YOU had three hearts, and switch to clubs if you had four hearts. He doesn't know if your ♥3 was from 3 or 4. So he plays the middle of his heart spots...

KT74 play the 7,

K764 play the 6

KT76 play the 7, etc.

 

Since you have only three hearts, the defense is clear. If you don't see the ♥T (playing UDCA) it is right to return a heart when in with ♦K.

 

Summary: if partner wants to ruff a club, he would play his lowest diamond. If he can't ruff a club, but is looking at the heart king/Ace, he will play a high diamond. When he can't ruff a club but has no heart honor? Makes no difference, he will play low diamond. On heart lead he uses the signals explained above.

 

A 5143 - Partner would not lead from Qx but might from QJ. We need to take our diamonds before declarer establishes ?9 for a diamond discard.

Partner will play a HIGH diamonds because he must have either the ACE or KING of hearts. I will lead the ♥3 and partner will clearly discourage a heart continuation (for me the ♥T since I play UDCA, playing standard the ♥4), so I know to switch pack the ♣ when I get in with my 2nd diamond winner. We will score both clubs, both diamonds, and if partner has heart ACE, a heart too. If he doesn't have the ACE, we still get four minor suit winners.

 

B 5152 - Declarer may establish diamonds for a club discard

Partner will play high diamond because he MUST has either the King or Ace of hearts. I will lead a heart and partner will follow the same defensive as problem A by playing the DISCOURAGING heart and we will shift back to a club.

 

C 5251 - Declarer may establish diamonds for a heart discard

Partner will give a high diamond, and I will shift to a heart. If declarer has AK tight of hearts, we were never beating it, but this sets the contract if he has Ax of Kx of hearts. With four hearts, partner will see our low heart and will play an muddling heart. Since I have only 3 hearts, my not seeing the highest or lowest missing heart, I will know to continue hearts when in with my second diamond.

 

D 5134 - We need to cash diamonds and take our club ruff

Partner will ask for club ruff, he will know I have the ♦A to lead too

 

E 5314 - We need to cash one diamond and take our club ruff

Partner will ask for club ruff, AND know I have the ♦A. I will not score the ♦A but partner will get his heart honor later (if declarer has AKx of hearts, no defense sets the contract).

 

F 5224 - We can either cash both diamonds or just one plus a club ruff

Partner will ask for club ruff, know I have the ♦A. I will win the ♦Ace after he ruffs a club, and then try a heart for likely down two.

 

As you can see, this logical line of defense (can it be worked out at the table?) handles all the hand types, but relies heavily on partnership understanding of the situation.

 

Theoretically if you had four hearts, reading partners signal with 3 versus 4 cards might be a little difficult. But here goes. Let's give you the ♥4 in addition to the J93. Now the missing cards are KT76. With three cards hearts, partners card will always be 6 or 7 with four cards it will always be the 7. So you are left wondering what to do (no problems if you have three hearts). There is a solution to this problem in the form of using either trumps or diamonds (depending upon which declarer leads) as to give alternative count in hearts or to serve as a clear suit preference signal. We assume partner has two spades and two diamonds left. If declarer plays two rounds or trumps, partner can give "count" in hearts by his play of spades, or he can give clear suit preference for hearts when he held three (high low in trumps) or not for hearts when he held four (low-high), depending upon your agreement about how you signal in trumps. My default is S/P.

 

A wise declarer will lead a diamond instead of trump with 5152 or 5251 and the heart ACE. Now you have to read partner's diamond as either s/p or alternative count in hearts (which ever you think your partner will give). But partner's diamond spot might be hard to read. He already played his highest diamond on the first round, so his last two diamonds are both low or both high spots you may actually get back to a guess.

[rduran1216]

If partner can't read the 2 of clubs asks for a diamond back then you're screwed either way. As soon as partner's J wins trick 2, cashing 2 diamonds will be clear, and anyone worth their salt will play a diamond at trick three. club 8 back screams for a heart so idk what thats about.

[phil_20686]

I tend to give suit preference whenever it looks like it will be more important than count anyway. As declarer obviously has plenty of trumps to ruff an losing clubs, this is a SP situation for me whether he is ruffing or not.