To dbl 1NT or not to dbl

[Aberlour10]

I would like to ask our forum experts about doubles vs strong 1NT in second seat.

Generally advices and helpful example-hands picturing when to do or not to do are very welcome. Thanks for comments.

[Foxx]

The right time to double RHO's 1NT opening bid is when it is going down.

[ggwhiz]

Doubling 1nt for penalty on 15+ points never worked for me. When my pard did it I was always looking at a really cheesy hand and never knew what to do.

 

We now play it as a source of tricks penalty oriented double. KQJTxx and a side A as a minimum type hand and if responder can't stand it they can bid 2♣ as a relay to whatever your source of tricks is but will try to pass with 1 trick or 2 maybe's.

 

We can double with worse suits and a better hand but must have somewhere to go if pard pulls. Not at all perfect as we have lost some boards by passing good flatish hands.

 

I never knew what to lead from those either so we've just cut down on the aggravation.

[Vampyr]

Many people do not bother to play penalty doubles of strong NTs, because the frequency is low. My favourite partner and I play that double is ♥+♠ or ♣+♦ or diamonds.

[mgoetze]

You should double a strong NT when you have a 4-card major and a 5-card minor.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolsey_(convention)

[Porreankel]

Another suggestion is to play D.O.N.T defence.

In which case X will show an unknown long suit, asking for 2c from partner.

 

You can read about it here: http://home.comcast.net/~kwbridge/dont.htm

[mgoetze]

Another suggestion is to play D.O.N.T defence.

 

Oh yeah, it's "another" suggestion, but certainly not one of mine!

[Antrax]

What's wrong with DONT?

[mich-b]

"classical" advice has been to double a strong NT (assuming you still play this as penalty) with a strong hand , and also a good lead to make from a strong long suit.

However, my impression is , that people who just double a strong NT with a balanced 17 or 18 , do pretty well, sometimes by getting a penalty, but more often by enabling partner to bid on an unbalanced weak (or very weak) hand reaching a good making partscore , instead of defending 1NT.

[mgoetze]

What's wrong with DONT?

 

Several things. While DONT supposedly does allow you to bid on 5-4 hands, it doesn't allow you to sensibly find out which is the longer of the two, so you will get to many more 4-2 fits than playing something like Woolsey. Also, it is much better to have a known major and an unknown minor than vice versa. 2♣ as clubs and another and 2♦ as diamonds and a major emphasize the minors too much. The ability to play in 2m with a minor single-suiter is another example of emphasizing the minors too much (especially as no sensible opponent will actually let you play there unless you are going for a big number or you had a game on).

 

That said, at least it has the 2nd-best bid for showing both majors (2♥), unlike some horrible systems such as Cappeletti which use the worst possible bid (2♦) for this purpose.

[wyman]

Doubling 1nt for penalty on 15+ points never worked for me. When my pard did it I was always looking at a really cheesy hand and never knew what to do.

 

We now play it as a source of tricks penalty oriented double. KQJTxx and a side A as a minimum type hand and if responder can't stand it they can bid 2♣ as a relay to whatever your source of tricks is but will try to pass with 1 trick or 2 maybe's.

 

We can double with worse suits and a better hand but must have somewhere to go if pard pulls. Not at all perfect as we have lost some boards by passing good flatish hands.

 

I never knew what to lead from those either so we've just cut down on the aggravation.

 

I'll double 1N with any strong hand with an obvious lead against 1Nx or any very strong hand. I will double more at MP, after a 3rd seat 1N (I realize your question was about a 1st/2nd seat 1N opener), and when opps are known to upgrade many 14s. If partner has a shapely bust, we play that runouts are natural (i.e., we can get out in 2C).

[aguahombre]

In summary, for this forum: find something else to use the double for vs. a strong NT.

 

While many agree that Capp is not particularly good, I recommend that whatever you use allows you to show 5+ of a major and not "maybe four, maybe five".

[wyman]

I'm surprised. I figured there would be a bunch of Landy advocates itt. It's about as natural as can be with a good structure to find a major fit.

[mikeh]

I'm surprised. I figured there would be a bunch of Landy advocates itt. It's about as natural as can be with a good structure to find a major fit.

Landy is just giving up on a lot of hands. It caters to only 1 out of 6 two suited hands, and 2-suiters are good hands on which to compete, since you have more chance of finding support when you hold 2 suits than when you hold a one suiter.

[gwnn]

Landy is a nice method. Meyerson is slightly better, at least in my view.

 

1N-

x=54 in a major and a minor either way

2♣=54 in majors either way

2♦/♥/♠=natural

 

there might be a point btw to play 2♦ as a weak 2M overcall.

 

over 1NT-x-p-?

2♣=p/c for the 5 card suit

2♦=asks for major

2M=natural

 

Using 2M as a two-suiter has never inspired me much. Unless pd promises 5-5 or I know which minor he has, playing in the major will be most often what we'll do so we might just as well have played 2M as natural. And if 2M promises 5-5 or a specific minor, we lose critically from frequency.

[Vampyr]

I'm surprised. I figured there would be a bunch of Landy advocates itt. It's about as natural as can be with a good structure to find a major fit.

 

The thread is really about what to use the double for, though. Landy uses a penalty double, so it is not really relevant.

[gwnn]

Anyway, penalty doubles are not a bad method. Even if your opponents say they play 15-17, they might open on 14 counts or even 13 with a 6 card minor. Even if you know for a fact that your opponents always count to 15 before even thinking of 1NT, you get some solid penalties and find some games that would have otherwise been lost. Anyway, it is not productive to switch between defences when our opps change from old school 15-17 to crazy 15-17, when their tendencies may not be clearly differentiated on the convention card.

 

If you play penalty doubles I would agree with starting with a good 15 or a good hand with a long suit, when you plan to double and bid over their supposed runout. If they don't run out, of course you'll be happy to take tricks with your long suit.

[aguahombre]

Landy is a nice method. Meyerson is slightly better, at least in my view.

 

1N-

x=54 in a major and a minor either way

2♣=54 in majors either way

2♦/♥/♠=natural

 

What do you think about x=4-5 in major and minor and just bidding 2M natural with the other way? Just a thought; maybe a not-so-good thought.

[wyman]

The thread is really about what to use the double for, though. Landy uses a penalty double, so it is not really relevant.

 

Very sorry if I misunderstood. I thought OP was asking when to make a penalty double of 1N!

[aguahombre]

Very sorry if I misunderstood. I thought OP was asking when to make a penalty double of (strong)1N!

You didn't misunderstand. That is what OP asked, and some people answered "never", and moved on to their preferences for the double. I also FYP with the paren.

[gwnn]

What do you think about x=4-5 in major and minor and just bidding 2M natural with the other way? Just a thought; maybe a not-so-good thought.

It's not bad, I don't mind it. Your way has advantages (because you get in your major which might get lost if they bid a minor over x or something) but also disadvantages (my way allows me to x on 5 bad major+4 minor and bid 2M on 5 good major+4 minor, furthermore I find hearts when you bid 2S and your partner doesn't know what to do on his 1624). Of course neither method is yours or mine, it's just a short way of referring to them. You might have noticed that "my" paranthesis is longer than "yours", that just goes to show that in my opinion, my method is slightly better than yours.

[Aberlour10]

Very sorry if I misunderstood. I thought OP was asking when to make a penalty double of 1N

 

This is correct. It was my primarily thought. Sorry if my wording led to misunderstandings among the posters.

Anyway, to read about other using of the dbl is very interesting too.

[aguahombre]

Cool answer to my question, Gwnn. Only one flaw: not MY method, just my question.

I didn't choose to mention my method, which doesn't belong in this forum (or maybe on this planet) anyway.

[gwnn]

aguahombre, I wrote a 3 line post and you read at most 2.5 of it.

 

Of course neither method is yours or mine' date=' it's just a short way of referring to them.[/quote']

[aguahombre]

oops