Serious/Frivolous after 1m-1M?

[Flem72]

So there's a hand in the current ACBL Bulletin that stirred the pot: Is S/F playable after a 1m-1M start? Bottom line is that I'd be interested in hearing about any structures that may be lurking in the void, but, in the meanwhile, some superficial cogitating....

 

Seems as if it may be playable after a NMFish auction, e.g.,

 

1C-1H

1N-2D

2H,

 

then cues etc with 3N being S/F on the ususal assumption that We have at least an 8-card major fit, etc. But what about a minor rebid auction, e.g.,

 

1D-1H

2D-something forcing

3H-? Is 3N here ever playable as S/F? Seems not, unless there is some agreement serving as a corollary to NMF, i.e., the "something forcing" is _agreed_ as asking for 3-card support, not simply allowing it in the course of a normal auction. But then We mess up our normal "let's find 3N after a 1m start" strategies, and mess them up in a major way.

 

Obviously, I haven't put much into this: I'm running off to a meeting and hoping the community will make up for my superficiality :blink:

 

Regards and Happy Trails,

 

Scott Needham

Boulder, Colorado, USA

[Stephen Tu]

I don't think it's a good idea. Serious 3nt/frivolous flag are used in the 2/1 auctions because *both hands are unlimited*, and you need to solve the problem of "how much extras do I need to cooperate with a slam try". In the auctions you give, opener's hand is quite limited, so there is no real need for this, and you'd rather preserve 3nt as choice of games.

[gnasher]

It's better to make rules based on the situation you're in, without regard to how you got there. For example "3NT is non-serious if we're both unlimited, the bidding's at the three level, and we have either a (a) 4-4 major-suit fit or (b) a 5-3 fit with one hand known not to be balanced." (Or whatever you want the rule to be.)

 

Could we reach that situation after 1m-1M;2m? Yes, if your methods allow it:

 

1♣-1♠

2♣-2♦ (artificial, FG)

2♥-3♥

 

Another way to get a major agreed is via FSF:

 

1♦-1♠

2♣-2♥

2♠-3♠

[Yu18772]

I play frivolous 3NT, but only on auctions where:

1. 3 level sets the suit and slamish, (absolutely gf situation)

2. one of the hands is unlimited

(Basically 2/1 type of auctions....)

 

In your second sequence:

"

D-1H

2D-something forcing

3H-?

"

1."something forcing" is not always "something forcing to game"....and does not necessarily shows 5 hearts, may be your partner is looking for stopper in "something unbid"

2. opener is limited, thus 3H cant be slamish, it just shows 3 hearts (and does not deny stopper in something 4th)

Thus, imo, 3NT here would be "I would rather play NT (have 4 hearts only), have game values, but I probably dont have a good stopper in the unbid suit - need something useful there"

[mike777]

fwiw : I play serious 3nt but one it seldom comes up and two most often it means I am looking for a club cuebid.

 

I assume opener has a minimum because he very very often does.

If opener has alot of extras he will bid again over signoff very often.

This leaves the 14-16 opener range hands as tough.

I try and reduce the number of these hands by opening 1nt offshape often.

btw responder in this style has a pretty strong hand to gf.

 

In your example opener has 11-13 so really not an issue. In your example we do not even have an 8card h fit yet.

 

 

1c=1h

1nt=2d!

2h=?

[Siegmund]

It can be played in just about any sequence where a major is agreed at the 3-level (or lower), and at least one member of the partnership is unlimited. There are a lot of auctions where it's probably not the best use of the bid. It may not even be the best use of the bid when both hands are unlimited - my personal preference is for sweep cue-bids but that's admittedly a small-minority treatment.

 

I am having trouble coming up with an auction where a minor suit is agreed and we have already so conclusively rejected 3NT that it isnt needed as a nonforcing bid.

[Phil]

I think we discussed this last week after 1m - 1M - 1N - 3M (forcing) and using serious / non serious. Not much need for this otherwise.

[Free]

Serious/frivolous is only used when there's a clear fit. In auctions where you're just giving preference 3NT shows a willingness to play there. For example 1D-1H-2D-3C-3H merely shows ♥Hx, 3NT would be to play.

 

After NMF or XYZ auctions I still play Serious/frivolous when the fit is set. For example 1C-1H-1NT-2D-2H-3H sets trumps (2D is just a GF relay, doesn't necessarily need 5H), here I still play ser/friv. Opener can have a max without a single keycard, but he may be min with 3 keycards. Imo it's important to show the degree of slam interest one player has whenever there's a Major suit set as trumps at 3-level, without having to skip an entire level of cuebids, especially when one of the players (responder in this case) is unlimited.