Take Out Double

[gneuz]

Is there anyway to bid for a penalty double instead of a takeout in answer to an opponents opening bid? I'm playing South and West opens 3D. With no raise possible, but a decent hand (12pts), I'm thinking West can't make 3D if North can give me two tricks. Well I passed, all passed, and the contract went down 2. This was with GIB playing all other seats, and the results were the same. All South seats passed down 2. South seats doubling wound up with North going down 2 0r 3 after bidding 3H. This was IMP (in response to one of the replies to this post).

[Bbradley62]

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[helene_t]

A penalty double might be work well on this hand but you can't defend effectively against preempts without take-out doubles. Once upon a time it was popular to play double as penalty and the cheapest bid (here 3♥ as take-out), but that sucks for a number of reasons:

- you miss the natural 3♥ overcall

- since 3♥ would be nonforcing you need a different call for very strong take out hands, presumably 4♦. That takes away a lot of bidding space and also means that you can't use 4♦ for other purposes, such as showing specifically 5-5 in the majors.

- if you bid 3♥ for t/o partner can't pass it for penalties

 

So nowadays no serious tournament players play penalty doubles of preempts. And no textbooks from the last 3-4 decades recommend it.

[gnasher]

Crowhurst was still recommending penalty doubles in 1980.

[ArtK78]

Most experienced players would pass the South hand, and most experienced North players would reopen with a double. This achieves the desired result.

 

Playing with GIB, you have to settle for down 2 undoubled.

 

(By the way, why don't you set 3♦ 3 tricks?)

[frank0]

IMO South should pass even if you play double as penalty and North's hand is not enough for reopen so 3♦ undoubled is just normal result. You cannot expect to have the best result after opp preempt and that's why they preempt.

 

For penalty double you can find conventions here. http://www.bridgeguys.com/Conventions/Defense3LevelPreempt.html

The main purpose of those conventions are preserving double as penalty/optional after opp's 3 level open and using other bid to show take-out hands. However those conventions are not popular. It's maybe because of the reason helene_t mentioned.

[aguahombre]

Most experienced players would pass the South hand, and most experienced North players would reopen with a double. This achieves the desired result.

The part about South passing must be right. But, I have not found a lot of success acting in balance position at the 3-level with a hand I would not have even considered opening at the 1-level. It might have worked well on this layout, but could look pretty silly on most.

[blackshoe]

Crowhurst was still recommending penalty doubles in 1980.

 

And he was probably the last one. 1980 was 31 (almost 32) years ago. B-)

[ArtK78]

The part about South passing must be right. But, I have not found a lot of success acting in balance position at the 3-level with a hand I would not have even considered opening at the 1-level. It might have worked well on this layout, but could look pretty silly on most.

We were not told whether this hand occurred at IMPs or at matchpoints. At matchpoints, I think that the North hand is a clear reopening double. At IMPs, maybe it is not so clear.

 

If you are like me, direct actions over preempts are sound. So some minimum one-level takout doubles are passed. This results in the need to balance on some very minimum hands.

 

It is a style. You may not agree with it, but it works well enough.

 

So, I would balance on the North hand at any form of scoring. Most of the time this works out well.

[gneuz]

Most experienced players would pass the South hand, and most experienced North players would reopen with a double. This achieves the desired result.

 

Playing with GIB, you have to settle for down 2 undoubled.

 

(By the way, why don't you set 3♦ 3 tricks?)

[gneuz]

Lack of skill???

[gneuz]

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[gneuz]

Thanks for the diagram!!

[Zelandakh]

FILM was still alive and going strong in some parts of England during the 90s. FILM is a method against preempts that attempts to preserve a penalty double by combining 2 other conventions, Fishbein and Lower Minor, hence FILM = Fishbein Incorporating Lower Minor. It works like this...

 

Over a 3C preempt:

3D is take-out

all other bids are natural

 

Over a 3D preempt:

3H is take-out with 4+ hearts

4C is take-out without 4 hearts

all other bids are natural

 

Over a 3H preempt:

3S is take-out with 4+ spades

4C is take-out without 4 spades

all other bids are natural

 

Over a 3S preempt:

4C is take-out

all other bids are natural

 

Unfortunately, time has shown that using such contortions to avoid a take-out double is just not worth it. I played around with FILM a little as a junior but I cannot recommend it. Other defences that allow a penalty double are even worse. Sometimes preempts work. FWiiW I am sure none of the other Souths took any action over 3D either.