Who is to blame here?

[the hog]

Nth Sth were playing a style where the 2S bid does not show extra values. Nth felt his cue showed extras. Sth felt that the rotten S and the xx in H did not warrant moving .

 

AKQJ

AJxxx

Qx

xx

 

xxxx

xx

AKJxx

Ax

 

1H 2D

2S 3S

4H 4S

All pass

[JLOGIC]

Obv north, he has a ton of extras and the fitting DQ. Playing serious 3N would also help as north could bid 3N, south could bid 4C, and they are off to the races.

[Phil]

I hope this isn't a setup from the other thread where many suggested that 1♥ - 2 minor - 2♠ doesn't promise extras. I don't think this your style so I will just assume that its a coincedence.

Anyway, playing serious/non-serious helps here. I think a sensible auction is

 

1♥ - 2♦

2♠ - 3♠

4♦* -4♥**

 

* serious cue

 

** last train - "I have the club control you are seeking" but I cannot move past 4♠.

 

I think North looking at great trump would move to slam.

 

In the end, the ♦J is a massive card and I wouldn't be surprised if a good partnership stayed out of slam with the ♦J or bid slam without it.

 

Note that playing 2♠ as showing extras has little bearing on the result.

[the hog]

"I hope this isn't a setup from the other thread where many suggested that 1♥ - 2 minor - 2♠ doesn't promise extras"

 

No, its not Phil. A mate sent me this yesterday. I note with interest that in the cue bidding style suggested by Fred G a 4D bid by responder's pd would show A, K or Q of Ds. Anyone play this?

Justin, I don't think they play 3NT serious or frivolous.

[JLOGIC]

"I note with interest that in the cue bidding style suggested by Fred G a 4D bid by responder's pd would show A, K or Q of Ds. Anyone play this?"

 

This is perfectly reasonable, Ken Rexford often advocates this approach. That would leave south with the ability to bid 4H with his hand also (showing a club control as partner has denied one).

 

Not playing serious or non serious is a mistake imo in this auction, bidding 3N natural is extremely unlikely. Even if 3N was some kind of waiting bid north could try that to get a 4C bid. 4H jams the auction a lot and if it doesn't show significant extras it is unreasonable to think partner will often bid anything but 4S when our hand and trumps are that strong.

[MrAce]

"I note with interest that in the cue bidding style suggested by Fred G a 4D bid by responder's pd would show A, K or Q of Ds. Anyone play this?"

 

Yes Justin. Aaron and i play it.

[JLOGIC]

Yes Justin. Aaron and i play it.

 

Sry I was quoting the hog and replying, was too lazy to put quote tags so just used quotation marks heh

[jdeegan]

:P I'm not sure I have learned anything about bidding since 1976, but I do know thanks to Dorothy Hayden that bidding is conversational. When opener bids 4♥ he is saying that he has enough extras to suggest that slam is possible, but no minor suit aces. Responder is fairly minimal, so a pessimistic 4♠ isn't out of the question, but with AK A in the minors and BIG source of tricks if pard has the ♦ queen (it sounds like he may have it) I think you ought to hazard 5♣. After that, it's easy.

[Free]

This depends a lot on agreements imo.

 

- if you play frivolous 3NT then 4♥ shows extra's indeed. If you play serious 3NT then 4♥ is a clear mistake.

- when cuebidding, do you cuebid a Q in partner's suit or not? If you do, then 4♥ is a clear mistake. Otherwise 4♥ can be right.

 

South has both minor suits controlled, and he knows North controls the ♥ suit. On the other hand he's minimum, he knows there's only a 4-4 fit,... Bidding 4♠ seems acceptable, but he should realize that North can't make any move after that. When South signs off in 4♠ he may miss controls in at least 1 of the minors (likely ♣ since he bid ♦). North would be gambling if he continued bidding after that.

 

Unless North violated one of the agreements for cuebidding, I can't really blame anyone.

[JLOGIC]

Why can north not make a further move after 4H-4S? It is not guaranteed to be a success but he has a massive hand that he has not yet shown, and I'd guess that 6S is more likely to be making than 5 is to be going down. Partner has shown 5 diamonds, 4 spades, and a game forcing hand opposite a 1H opener and we have not shown nearly this much extra. Our hand is definitely consistent with at least AKxx AKxxx xx xx and definitely less than that even imo.

[Free]

Opps may as well cash ♣AK and make North ruff, making a 4-1 trump split impossible to handle. The 5-level may be relatively safe, but I wouldn't call the North hand massively strong to risk going to the 5 level.

[the hog]

I asked and Nth / Sth do not play S or F 3NT. They are considering adopting it after this hand.

[rhm]

The slam is hard to bid via cue-bids even though North has extras. North underbid. North should take control and bid 5♠ either directly over 3♠ or after 4♠, which suggests slam should be on if South controls the unbid suit ♣.

I think 4♦ is also a (much) better bid over 3♠ than 4♥ and it is also better than any serious / non-serious business. 4♦ can not be described as a control-bid or cue-bid but it establishes a source of tricks. That's why 4♦ should never be a singleton or void in this sequence.

Slams is not only about controls it is about having tricks. Slam invites should first establish that the tricks will likely be present before embarking on a control-bidding sequence.

At least as many slams go down, because there are nowhere 12 tricks, than because the required controls are not present.

 

Some sequences which I consider sensible:

 

1♥-2♦

2♠-3♠

5♠-6♠

 

1♥-2♦

2♠-3♠

4♦-4♠

5♠-6♠

 

1♥-2♦

2♠-3♠

4♦-4♠

5♥-6♠

 

Rainer Herrmann

[han]

Not playing serious 3NT or cueing queens, I think the auction

 

1H - 2D

2S - 3S

4H - 4S

5D - 6S

 

is quite straightforward. Rhm's first auction (with the jump to 5S) looks strange to me. Why would you bid like this instead of showing what you hold? How does responder know to bid 6?

[the hog]

Not playing serious 3NT or cueing queens, I think the auction

 

1H - 2D

2S - 3S

4H - 4S

5D - 6S

 

is quite straightforward. Rhm's first auction (with the jump to 5S) looks strange to me. Why would you bid like this instead of showing what you hold? How does responder know to bid 6?

 

I like this auction above.

[rhm]

Not playing serious 3NT or cueing queens, I think the auction

 

1H - 2D

2S - 3S

4H - 4S

5D - 6S

 

is quite straightforward. Rhm's first auction (with the jump to 5S) looks strange to me. Why would you bid like this instead of showing what you hold? How does responder know to bid 6?

 

When 3 suits have been bid a raise or jump to 5 of the agreed major simply asks for control of the unbid suit. South is not expected to pass with control of ♣.

South could bid 6♣ showing first round control, in case that North wants to play seven, but with such weak ♠s I think bidding 6♠ instead is reasonable.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Why should the South hand venture toward slam if the direct 2S rebid does not promise "extras" ?

 

He knows Opener has to have ast least ♠AKQ plus enough extras for any chance.

[rduran1216]

South can see North's problem looking at Ak A in the minors.

 

South should bid 5C over 4H, then you're dancing.

 

However, try to construct a South hand that isn't 75%+ for making 6 that would bid 3S instead of 4S.

 

Both players are at fault, North for not picture what South must look like, and South for not anticipating North's problem over 4S.

[PetteriLem]

South can see North's problem looking at Ak A in the minors.

 

South should bid 5C over 4H, then you're dancing.

 

However, try to construct a South hand that isn't 75%+ for making 6 that would bid 3S instead of 4S.

 

Both players are at fault, North for not picture what South must look like, and South for not anticipating North's problem over 4S.

I have symphaty for your view, but I think 3♠ is the key of the deal. It has to show extras. North has heard 2/1 GF, slammish raise

and he is looking at a good hand. He must realize that 4♥ was no more than a forced cue bid, which he has to do unless he is totally

broke. South could have a huge hand here and north should not prevent slam exploration lightly. North has to make another bid and risk the 5th level.

[JLOGIC]

Not playing serious 3NT or cueing queens, I think the auction

 

1H - 2D

2S - 3S

4H - 4S

5D - 6S

 

is quite straightforward. Rhm's first auction (with the jump to 5S) looks strange to me. Why would you bid like this instead of showing what you hold? How does responder know to bid 6?

 

I made almost the exact same post at some point, then I wondered if the 5D bid could be on a stiff. Of course cuebidding a stiff in partners suit is not a good idea, but when you have bypassed the cuebid already, perhaps the inference is that your control is shortness, rather than that it is a third round control? I do not know the answer to this question, just a thought.

[Cascade]

Was 2♦ forcing to game or for one round?

 

If game force then the cue would not necessarily show extras.

 

If for one round then it would.

[mike777]

Nth Sth were playing a style where the 2S bid does not show extra values. Nth felt his cue showed extras. Sth felt that the rotten S and the xx in H did not warrant moving .

 

AKQJ

AJxxx

Qx

xx

 

xxxx

xx

AKJxx

Ax

 

1H 2D

2S 3S

4H 4S

All pass

 

 

If we assume lite openings then maybe?

 

 

1h=1s(not good enough for 2/1)

4s=4nt?

5c(3)=6s

[the hog]

Was 2♦ forcing to game or for one round?

 

If game force then the cue would not necessarily show extras.

 

If for one round then it would.

 

GF