VM1973 Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 [hv=lin=pn|VM1973,scarrosc,avci_mem,ATALIVA|st||md|2S79JQKHAD4568C5KA,SAH459JD27TQC68JQ,S34568TH2378KDC79,|rh||ah|Board 40|sv|o|mb|p|mb|p|mb|p|mb|1S|mb|p|mb|4S|mb|p|mb|p|mb|p|pg||pc|CQ|pc|C7|pc|C2|pc|CA|pg||pc|HA|pc|H4|pc|H2|pc|H6|pg||pc|SK|pc|SA|pc|S3|pc|S2|pg||pc|CJ|pc|C9|pc|C3|pc|CK|pg||pc|D4|pc|D2|pc|S4|pc|D3|pg||pc|HK|pc|HT|pc|C5|pc|H5|pg||pc|H3|pc|HQ|pc|S7|pc|H9|pg||pc|D5|pc|D7|pc|S5|pc|D9|pg||pc|H7|pc|C4|mc|12|]400|300[/hv] Assess blame for the failure to reach 6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 I think I know the answer you are looking for here...North has 21 zars so is clearly far too strong for 4S? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VM1973 Posted August 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 I think I know the answer you are looking for here...North has 21 zars so is clearly far too strong for 4S?Actually I figured that for a pass he could have as much as 25 ZPs. Since I held 36 ZPs that adds up to 61, which isn't enough for a small slam... so I passed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 I think I know the answer you are looking for here...North has 21 zars so is clearly far too strong for 4S?But what else does he bid ? 4♦ or 3♥ (fit) are pretty fruity on a 3 count, but will get you to a slam. You have a powerful offensive hand and partner is marked with a good hand as both opps have passed, but KJxxx, Axx, AKJ, Qx which is not impossible and you're not making 4, you haven't actually made 3 yet, partner is likely to get excited if you take an action that you might take on a stronger hand. Should south bid on ? No he requires either the hand N has or Axxxx, xxxxx, x, xx to give him a chance, I don't think that's all that likely. No real blame. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 LTC for beginners. 7+5=12 subtracted from 18=6 bid 6 :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flameous Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 lol, for once I'd want to be playing bergen (or really just a mixed raise). Could bid 3D+4D to show the void.It's pretty close if this is enough for passed hand fitjump. If N hadn't passed, I'd definitely be missing this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Just one of those things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rduran1216 Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 LTC for beginners. 7+5=12 subtracted from 18=6 bid 6 :rolleyes: unlike contrived hands of LTC haters, this hand simply illustrates the power of LTC. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 unlike contrived hands of LTC haters, this hand simply illustrates the power of LTC.I really do hope you were joking as I was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdeegan Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 :P Thanks for introducing me to ZAR points. zarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.................. Certainly, no blame here. The big hand didn't (couldn't) open 2♣, and its inconceivable for responder to bid anything but 4♠ even with his approximate 21 ZARRRRRRRRRRRRRRR points. By the way, how does LTC, which I am familiar with, recognize that pard has four small diamonds opposite my void? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shevek Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 East. Clear 1♦ or 2♦ opening in 3rd seat, non-vul.West's failure to make a passed hand double of 1♠ deserves mild censure too. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 LTC for beginners. 7+5=12 subtracted from 18=6 bid 6 :rolleyes:LTC for advanced players almost gets you in grand slam, with all the extra trumps North sure has less than 7 losers. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Seems like normal to me... swap North's minors and all would be well. This more or less makes me conclude that a way over-streched splinter by North is the only way to bid it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VM1973 Posted August 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 I've given it a lot of thought and I've decided that I am to blame. With Zar Points his hand reevaluates to 27 ZPs in support of spades as he gets 2 points for each spade beyond the 8-card fit (with a void). I was wrong to assume he couldn't have 26+ ZPs. As I had more than an ace more than I had shown, it was up to me to take further action. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 I've given it a lot of thought and I've decided that I am to blame. With Zar Points his hand reevaluates to 27 ZPs in support of spades as he gets 2 points for each spade beyond the 8-card fit (with a void). I was wrong to assume he couldn't have 26+ ZPs. As I had more than an ace more than I had shown, it was up to me to take further action.Yes but he also bids 4♠ with the same hand with the minors reversed where 10 tricks is the limit. Just write it off, you'll have plenty of company in 4♠. Also, do you not wonder why very few decent players use ZAR points ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_clown Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Blame the system. Playing strong ♣ you would easily be in 6. 1♣-1♦-1♠-3♦. If the oponents interfere with their ♦ even better, S will quickly figure out he has a monster 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Anyone else think this was about 4♠ making 10? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooltuna Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Just one of those things Okay so you are playing in the Bermuda Bowl against the EBU champion and since this is "Just one of those things" you bid 4♠? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 anyone who uses this sort of hand as justification for the adoption of a particular method of hand evaluation and/or bidding method is misguided. I have read about a very large number of valuation methods and bidding systems and as far as I can tell there never has been and imo never will be methods of either that handle freaks well while also handling well the infinitely more important normal hands. I think many students of the game get hooked, hopefully only temporarily, on the search for the perfect methods. Imo the fundamental problem is that the rules of bidding so constrain the number of sequences available that it becomes impossible to accurately describe all possible holdings. So it behooves a theorist to accept this and then to focus his or her efforts on maximizing the ability to bid the common hands with maximal effect and leave the freaks to some combination of judgment and luck. Let me suggest, also, that if you spell out for any decent player an approach to bidding, that decent player will very quickly come up with hands that cause the users of that approach some difficulty. The more uncommon those hands are, the better the method. I freely admit that every method I have ever played would cause me to miss slam on this hand. But I don't care, because this hand type rarely arises. I might play 100 sessions of bridge and not see one that is comparable. In the meantime, I want to be able to maximize my performance on the vast range of hands that I can actually anticipate holding. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VM1973 Posted August 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 Yes but he also bids 4♠ with the same hand with the minors reversed where 10 tricks is the limit. Just write it off, you'll have plenty of company in 4♠. Also, do you not wonder why very few decent players use ZAR points ?He might have also bid 4♠ holding:♠108654♥K8732♦A♣97 Or he might be holding: ♠10865♥K8732♦AK♣97 Or the minors might have been reversed and I might have held:♠KQJ97♥4♦8654♣AK5 ...and I'd be down 1 in 4♠. OR I might be up against an inspired defense. I once kibbitzed a game where the opening lead was a diamond... ruffed. After a long thought a diamond was returned and ruffed. That might happen to me.-----------------------------I still think that holding more than an ace above an opening bid, I should have taken further action. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 He might have also bid 4♠ holding:♠108654♥K8732♦A♣97 Or he might be holding: ♠10865♥K8732♦AK♣97 -----------------------------I still think that holding more than an ace above an opening bid, I should have taken further action.He shouldn't be holding any of those hands, as he has obvious bids other than 4♠ on them. This is why it's wrong to bid on with the big hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rduran1216 Posted August 26, 2011 Report Share Posted August 26, 2011 I really do hope you were joking as I was. come on man haha 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 East forgot to open the bidding. Once you got to open 1S in fourth seat I don't understand the problem with a splinter from North. You have enormous playing strength, why not tell partner you have a diamond shortage?p.s. if you happen to play Drury you can distinguish two strengths of splinter by starting with/not starting with Drury Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 I'll disagree with mikeh on this one. A hand with a very good fit and shape like this is not necessarily so unusual. It seems quite useful to be able to distinguish a hand like this (which has sufficient playing strength that you expect to usually make 4♠) from the usual junk that a 4♠ preempt can be (say the same hand with one less spade and one more diamond). In addition, there is no real natural meaning for 3NT here by a passed hand -- what sort of hand wants to contract for game in notrump opposite a third-seat opener that couldn't open in first chair? It seems basically without loss to use 3NT here as a 4♠ bid with mild slam interest opposite a better-than-normal opening. Then opener can ask for shortage, find out about the diamond shortness, and basically blast slam. Looking at the south cards, it's actually quite common for slam to make if partner has diamond shortage and at least one useful card (say the spade ace or heart king or even club queen). This is a fairly common conventional treatment (jump to 3NT over partner's 1M shows a "good 4M bid" allowing partner to look for slam if he likes); it's not some exotic method that deals only with this particular hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 I would bid 4♠ with north hand. Seeing both hands, i could splinter and then show my void over 4 NT for happy ending. But we would then discuss another ATB topic, if pd held something like KQJxxQxAxxxAK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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