Can you bid to slam with these hands?

[jules101]

[hv=pc=n&s=skqj876hdq73ckt64&n=sahj9642dak64caq3]133|200[/hv]

 

North is dealer.

 

No opposition bidding.

 

Is it possible to bid a slam with these hands (let alone a grand slam)?

 

You can make 13 tricks in ♠ as the EW hold 3♦ each, and the ♠ split 4-2.

 

 

1♥ - 1♠ - 3♦ would be GF, but I think should have a better ♥ suit?

 

 

You are aided here by seeing both hands.

 

Can you suggest a realistic auction which gets to slam?

[chasetb]

Playing standard, it would be pretty difficult. I can only get to 6♠, but I would with one key difference from standard:

1♥ - 1♠;

2NT - 3♥ (TRANSFER to Spades)

3♠ - 4♣

4♦ - 4♥

4NT - 5♠

6♠

[VM1973]

Well personally I couldn't help but notice that opening hand has 38 Zar Points and the responding hand has 29 ZPs which read the magic 67 ZPs needed for 13 tricks (and yes, I've done the math twice so no one can bust me).

 

But then I realized I didn't have enough tens.

 

Anyway can I bid that to 13 tricks? No, I don't think I can but I have a gnawing feeling in the pit of my stomach that good big club players would be able to. The only real possibility I can see is for North to decide that his hand is too strong for 1♥ and too weak for 2♣ and so he decides to open an off-shape 2NT. From there South will decide that he knows the trump suit is spades and proceed accordingly... but South will have problems cuebidding and holding a void he will want to have some sort of exclusion ace-asking in place.

 

2NT-3♥ (xfer)

3♠-4♣ (for aces, Spades key suit)

4♦-5♥ (I'm void in hearts so that ace doesn't count)

6♦ (I don't have the ♥A but I do have the ♦K)

 

Even then it might be hard to bid 7.

[Zelandakh]

Can you suggest a realistic auction which gets to slam?

 

- Yes.

 

Would I get to slam in practise?

- Almost certainly not...so why bother?!

[TWO4BRIDGE]

[hv=pc=n&s=skqj876hdq73ckt64&n=sahj9642dak64caq3]133|200[/hv]

 

North is dealer.

 

No opposition bidding.

 

Can you suggest a realistic auction which gets to slam?

I can't.

[ggwhiz]

It's a parlay but if South treats that as a game force despite the ♥ void...........

 

1♥ - 1♠

2♦ - 3♣ FSF to game.

 

With Souths next bid being 4♠ maybe North can visualize the short ♥ and move on to 6 at most.

 

I would only have a chance if I just came from the bar.

[whereagles]

I can't think of anything except for a relay system.

[Siegmund]

Is 1H-1S-2NT followed by South blasting to 6S realistic? It wouldn't be the strangest thing to do, with a 5-loser hand and no fancy methods with an unfamiliar partner.

 

1H-1S-2NT, followed by South being able to set trumps at the 3-level and demand cuebids, doesn't seem unrealistic at all, though a lot of people don't have the agreements to do it.

 

(And yes, if I am North, I think I might really find the 2NT rebid. It feels like a more honest description of my hand than 2D does, that's for sure.)

 

It's a lot harder to come up with sensible paths to, well, anywhere, after 1H-1S-2D-3C or 1H-1S-2D-3S.

[whereagles]

Is 1H-1S-2NT followed by South blasting to 6S realistic?

 

Yes, but rebiding 2NT would not :)

[daveharty]

The only real possibility I can see is for North to decide that his hand is too strong for 1♥ and too weak for 2♣ and so he decides to open an off-shape 2NT.

I think this is really stretching it. Siegmund's suggestion looks pretty reasonable to me (something like 1H-1S-2NT-6S); I wouldn't bid the north hand that way myself, but I've seen people do it before plenty of times, and it might work on this hand.

[aguahombre]

I vote with Whereagles for the relay system, which I neither use nor understand. Otherwise, just chalk it up to the same theme ---auctions which start 1H-1S make me cringe every time, and if 2S is strong, I still can't handle this one.

 

If one or both of us make some offbeat choices, we might accidentally get there; but not with any science.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I think the start

 

1H - 1S

3D

 

is reasonable.

 

In the end the alternatives to 3D are not good either, 2D is an huge

underbid, you can downgrade the hand to 17HCP, but the single Ace is

in partners suit, and 2NT showes a bal. hand.

3D is not matadory, but you have 18HCP, and 3D does not imply a good

heart suit, why should it?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[VM1973]

I think this is really stretching it. Siegmund's suggestion looks pretty reasonable to me (something like 1H-1S-2NT-6S); I wouldn't bid the north hand that way myself, but I've seen people do it before plenty of times, and it might work on this hand.

Surely after 1♥-1♠ the next bid must be 3♦ not 2NT. The problem with this hand is most slams happen by first showing strength, second finding the fit, and third checking on controls. On this hand you're likely to spend too much time trying to find a fit that isn't there to have enough room to check on controls.

 

I would say this hand definitely cannot be bid to slam if you use LTC, MLTC or HCPs. Both LTC and MLTC require you to have an established 8-card or better fit before you start counting losers (or half-losers) and you only have a combined 28 HCPs so that doesn't put you into the slam zone, either. Assuming that you've decided to play Zar Points (ZPs) or Binky Points (which I know little about) you might agree on a NT structure like this:

 

26-28 ZPs 1m-rebid 1NT (equivalent 12-14 HCPs)

29-31 ZPs open 1NT (equivalent 15-17 HCPs)

32-35 ZPs 1m-rebid 2NT (equivalent 18-20 HCPs)

38-40 ZPs open 2NT (equivalent 21-23 HCPs)

 

As you can see from the table the opener's 38 ZPs would entitle him (under this theoretical system, which I've never used, don't say is best, and invented just Saturday) the hand does qualify for an opening 2NT bid, which is more attractive considering the heart suit is Jack-empty-fifth. If that happened, the responder would add up his ZPs, figure out they're in the slam range and check on controls but you still need Voidwood or some other exclusion Blackwood system otherwise you're likely to stop because of uncertainty about controls.

 

Even so, I think that a good number of people even with the above ZP agreement might still readily open it 1♥ with plans to rebid 3♦.

[daveharty]

Surely after 1♥-1♠ the next bid must be 3♦ not 2NT.

I was simply saying that I thought Siegmund's theoretical auction was (far) more likely than your suggestion that North might open a skewed 2NT. Surely if you decide the North hand is "notrumpish" you would not upgrade it to 20, would you? If your range for an opening 2NT is 18-20 or something, obviously that is a different story.

 

Again, I wouldn't personally bid the North hand that way, but I can sort of see the appeal of rebidding 2NT rather than 3D, with more than half of your high card strength in your two short suits.

[VM1973]

I was simply saying that I thought Siegmund's theoretical auction was (far) more likely than your suggestion that North might open a skewed 2NT. Surely if you decide the North hand is "notrumpish" you would not upgrade it to 20, would you? If your range for an opening 2NT is 18-20 or something, obviously that is a different story.

 

Again, I wouldn't personally bid the North hand that way, but I can sort of see the appeal of rebidding 2NT rather than 3D, with more than half of your high card strength in your two short suits.

Let's assume that you normally play 20-21 HCPs for a 2NT opener and that with 22+ you open 2♣. Now if you decide to start playing ZPs but don't really adjust the HCP requirements then what is a partner going to expect out of your hand?

 

Personally when my partner opens a 2NT I expect either 4-4-3-2 or 5-3-3-2 as these are the most common hand shapes. Of course he might be 4-3-3-3 or maybe even off-shape. So 4-4-3-2 is 10 distributional points (Zar System) and 5-3-3-2 is 11 whereas 4-3-3-3 is only 8 so I'm going to say that, on average your partner can count on you for 10 distributional points and 26 points in high cards (as in the ZP system AKQJ = 13 whereas in the Work system it's 10) so 36 ZPs on average.

 

Accordingly with no prior agreement other than "Let's play Zar Points!" if you open 2NT your partner will expect you to have between 26+8=34 (4-3-3-3) and 27.3+11=38,3 (5-3-3-2) so not only do I think it's not crazy to suggest a 2NT opener with this hand, I think that without prior agreement that it would be considered maxed for the range.

[daveharty]

http://www.i-mockery.com/generalzod/media/zod-scowl.jpg

Kneel before Zar!

[VM1973]

http://www.i-mockery.com/generalzod/media/zod-scowl.jpg

Kneel before Zar!

I'm pretty sure his name was Zod.

[semeai]

I think this hand is closer to a 2NT rebid than a 2NT opening.

 

Zar points isn't a system. It's a hand evaluation method. This hand has a stiff Ace and its 5 card suit is poor. It's a point or two worse than most hands with the same distribution and high cards.

 

Using K&R (because it cares about high card placement): This hand is 18.5. If you swap the heart J9 with the club AQ it's 19.5. If you instead swap the spade A with a low heart, it's 20.6 (or 20.35 if you swap it with the heart 9).

 

That said, if you subtract, say, two zars, it still is in your putative 2NT range in terms of Zar points, though on the low end. However, this hand evaluates negatively with a spade fit, and as for a heart fit, you'd find out about that before rebidding 2NT, so we should assume you don't have one. That deals with 2 out of 3 of the most likely strains, and Zar points probably overstate the value of distribution and aces at notrump without a fit.

[mike777]

/Welcome to the forums where most of us bid slam easy in many many easy methods......

[aguahombre]

And on the fora, we get to change our methods to fit the current post. Those who don't, often confess that the particular situation is not good for their methods.

[semeai]

You can reasonably get in the vicinity of slam with 1H-1S;2D-3C;4N-?, but South will expect two spade losers opposite a singleton.

 

With instead 1H-1S;2D-3S, we'd at the least need North to go past 4S to have a chance I think. If 3S is invitational, that seems unlikely. This is more likely if we can get to a similar state with 3S forcing.

 

Given that the original post seemed to encourage going out on a limb and also trying aguahombre's suggestion of changing methods (that wasn't a suggestion you say?):

 

There was recently a suggestion by Josh Donn in a comment to this post at bridgewinners to use 1H-1S;2D-2S as 4th suit forcing (using 1H-2S for hands that would normally bid this way). Then there's the possibility of 1H-1S;2D-2S;2N-3S;4C-4S;5D-6S if we've decided North will go to the 5-level. More fancifully, how about 1H-1S;2D-2S;2N-3S;5H-6S, where 5H is a Bluhmer. I think I've now committed every sin possible in a "bid this to slam" post.

 

If you happen to play 1H-1S;2D-3S forcing, maybe one of these last two sequences without the 2S;2N bit is possible.

 

I doubt these are good judgment on North's part with just stiff Ace of spades.

[chasetb]

/Welcome to the forums where most of us bid slam easy in many many easy methods......

And on the fora, we get to change our methods to fit the current post. Those who don't, often confess that the particular situation is not good for their methods.

These two quotes are pretty much true. I'll admit that with most partnerships I'll never reach this slam; I think the only standard bidding system that could for me is one I am just starting with another Junior. Even then, it takes a little gutsy bidding, but us Juniors know no fear :P

 

Surely after 1♥-1♠ the next bid must be 3♦ not 2NT. The problem with this hand is most slams happen by first showing strength, second finding the fit, and third checking on controls. On this hand you're likely to spend too much time trying to find a fit that isn't there to have enough room to check on controls.

 

(Parts removed)

 

26-28 ZPs 1m-rebid 1NT (equivalent 12-14 HCPs)

29-31 ZPs open 1NT (equivalent 15-17 HCPs)

32-35 ZPs 1m-rebid 2NT (equivalent 18-20 HCPs)

38-40 ZPs open 2NT (equivalent 21-23 HCPs)

 

(More parts removed)

3♦ shows at least 5-5 in the suits bid, (18)19+ HCP, and most/all of your points in those suits. You can stretch with a 5-4, but that toothless Heart suit (as in 1 HCP) makes me rebid 2NT every time. Also, speaking of ZPs, if you have read fully Zar's Bidding Evaluation, you would know for his "systems backbone", he uses an unlimited 1♣, a strong artificial but NF 1♦, 1M as 4+ with possible canape, and 1NT as 26-30 ZP (no 4M, 6m, 5-5 minors). The couple of times I messed around with basic openings and responses using Zar Points and based on Zar's backbone, 1NT worked out pretty well. The ACBL only allows a maximum of 5 HCP in the 1NT range, but that range covers 12-16, so it's all good.

[655321]

http://www.i-mockery.com/generalzod/media/zod-scowl.jpg

Kneel before Zar!

 

Yes, people who talk about Zar points make me think of General Zod too.

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/25243-your-opening-style/page__view__findpost__p__278226

[Zelandakh]

Right, I said I wouldn't but bleurgh, here is a "realistic" auction.

 

1C = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any

... - 1H = 4+ spades, GF

1S = relay, usually 18+

... - 3C = 6 spades, 4 clubs, 0-1 hearts

3D = relay

... - 3H = 6034

3S = relay

... - 3N = min

4C = relay

... - 4H = 2 controls

4N = Q ask

... - 5C = no CQ

5S = SQ? (NF)

... - 6D = yes, and DQ

6S

 

I am not saying this is the auction I would expect at the table. Does that make it realistic or not for the purposes of the OP?

[daveharty]

I'm pretty sure his name was Zod.

Um...yes. You caught me. ;)