big spade fit

[daveharty]

I was just kibbing some friends and this hand came up:

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sj8652h6dakt962c3&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1sp]133|200[/hv]

 

What's your pleasure, and why?

[Bbradley62]

4NT, because partner's response gives me the information I want, while minimizing opps' chance to find a fit.

[manudude03]

I was going to content myself with 4S (and 5D over 4NT/5C otherwise 5S), but I like 4NT. If you play that 4NT forces the partnership to slam opposite stronger option, well...it might make opposite 3 anyway.

[Phil]

2♦ because partner's response gives me the information I want and I don't care about the opponents finding their fit.

[Phil]

Guys, sorry but 4N is a LOL.

[pooltuna]

2♦ because partner's response gives me the information I want and I don't care about the opponents finding their fit.

 

 

2NT because partner's response gives me the information I want and I don't care about the opponents finding their fit. :)

[whereagles]

4NT has merit but is dangerous. If pard has but one keycard you're dead.

[Finch]

At least on this side of the pond, 4NT as a direct response to an opening bid is used to ask for straight aces, not keycard. If I want to use keycard, I agree partner's suit first.

[mikeh]

At least on this side of the pond, 4NT as a direct response to an opening bid is used to ask for straight aces, not keycard. If I want to use keycard, I agree partner's suit first.

Agreed in this part of a former colony.

 

In any event, 4N is flat out silly.....KQxxx KQx xx KQx is a full opener and here we are explaining how, with no opposition bidding, we reached the 5 level off 3 cashing Aces.

 

I can live with J2N, especially if we have some good response structure....partner won't go nuts with only 1 keycard....we won't reach the 5 level very often, and he won't take charge with only 2 keys.

 

2♦ is certainly plausible, but I don't think that a slow approach will tell us any more and will often tell us less than 2N...and this is a hand on which to assume captaincy.

 

Yes, xxx in diamonds makes any spot we rieach risky, but I'll take that chance, while I won't take the needless risk of an immediate 4N (even if it were keycard).

[xxhong]

3NT as a RKC to S.

I was just kibbing some friends and this hand came up:

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sj8652h6dakt962c3&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1sp]133|200[/hv]

 

What's your pleasure, and why?

[MrAce]

At least on this side of the pond, 4NT as a direct response to an opening bid is used to ask for straight aces, not keycard. If I want to use keycard, I agree partner's suit first.

 

When i said this very same thing in another thread, it was found odd by people B-)

 

Anyway, i would personally start 2♦. I would not be so comfortable doing this, had pd opened 1♥, instead of 1♠

[Free]

2♦ is much better than a splinter imo. The shortnesses and extra trumps are nice for control, but the real strength is the ♦ suit.

[the hog]

2D, because i want to be able to bid 3S to set S later.

[rhm]

At least on this side of the pond, 4NT as a direct response to an opening bid is used to ask for straight aces, not keycard. If I want to use keycard, I agree partner's suit first.

I can understand the logic, but this logic is for scientists.

I can not remember when I last had a hand, where I wanted to jump to 4NT asking for straight aces over a major suit opening, while asking for key-cards is common, at least in comparison.

This rule makes for convoluted auctions. The scientist believe it does not matter.

I believe it does.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

In any event, 4N is flat out silly.....KQxxx KQx xx KQx is a full opener and here we are explaining how, with no opposition bidding, we reached the 5 level off 3 cashing Aces.

In perfect Bridge dreamland that is true.

4N is a calculated risk, where it is easy to see the flaw.The question really is how big this flaw really is.

Meanwhile a slow approach, may make it impossible to ask for any keycards, should opponents interfere.

If you take the slow approach, you will need to have extremely good tools to distinguish KQxxx KQx xx KQx from Axxxx,Axx,xx,Axx.

Yes I know most of you will have tailor made agreements to distinguish these two hands --- on paper.

 

We lesser mortals will either eventually have to ask for key cards, even if we take the slow approach, or never ask for keycards.

Never asking for keycards may not only land you in game when slam is cold, it will also make it unlikely to reach a grand when partner happens to have four keycards, say AKxxx,Axx,xx,Axx.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[gwnn]

I was trying to find the thread on this, I think it was created late 2009 and opinions were widely varied. I remember that JLOGIC advocated keycard; I didn't really read the other replies.

 

edit: http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/34354-1z-4nt/

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I was trying to find the thread on this, I think it was created late 2009 and opinions were widely varied. I remember that JLOGIC advocated keycard; I didn't really read the other replies.

 

edit: http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/34354-1z-4nt/

Here is Justin's quote from a Sept 14, 2010 thread:

 

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=41586&st=15

 

Jlogic: " Keycard is bid on almost every slam hand at all levels, and when it isn't it's usually because there was a quantitative auction like 2N-4N-6N, or the opponents preempted you out of being about to bid keycard. This is not for no reason, keycard is absolutely vital to slam bidding, GL trying to cuebid your way into every slam correctly. "

[ArtK78]

I have also advocated a direct 4NT in response to an opening one bid as aces, not keycard.

 

I had a hand within the past year where it came up, and it resulted in a swing in our favor.

 

One can (almost) always make a forcing major suit raise prior to bidding 4NT as keycard, so using 4NT directly as ace-asking has virtually no downside, and it helps on certain freak hands where the holding of the trump K is not relevant.

[wyman]

2N for me. I want partner to know that I'm making a GF spade raise now in case it comes back around to me at 4H or 5C.

[mikeh]

In perfect Bridge dreamland that is true.

4N is a calculated risk, where it is easy to see the flaw.The question really is how big this flaw really is.

Meanwhile a slow approach, may make it impossible to ask for any keycards, should opponents interfere.

If you take the slow approach, you will need to have extremely good tools to distinguish KQxxx KQx xx KQx from Axxxx,Axx,xx,Axx.

Yes I know most of you will have tailor made agreements to distinguish these two hands --- on paper.

 

We lesser mortals will either eventually have to ask for key cards, even if we take the slow approach, or never ask for keycards.

Never asking for keycards may not only land you in game when slam is cold, it will also make it unlikely to reach a grand when partner happens to have four keycards, say AKxxx,Axx,xx,Axx.

 

Rainer Herrmann

Are you suggesting that after a 2N forcing raise, I will miss grand opposite 4 keycards?

 

Using 2N to set trump is a precursor to, not a means of avoiding, the use of keycard.

 

I agree that the hand on which one wants to know Aces and not keycards is rare, but it really isn't esoteric bridge science to agree that 4N caters to that hand while J2N then Ace asking is keycard. Anyone who uses Texas and jacoby, for example, already uses a similar sort of approach: 2 level transfer then 4N is quantitative, 4 level transfer then 4N is keycard. How tough is that to remember?

 

 

As for interference, while the odds are that we won't need 4N as just Aces very often, I don't find the chances of a 5-level bid by 4th hand over J2N to happen very often either B-)

 

I find it funny that people who advocate keycard 4N seem to think that those of us who don't ask for keycards on round one of the bidding intend never to ask later.

[rhm]

Are you suggesting that after a 2N forcing raise, I will miss grand opposite 4 keycards?

 

Using 2N to set trump is a precursor to, not a means of avoiding, the use of keycard.

 

I agree that the hand on which one wants to know Aces and not keycards is rare, but it really isn't esoteric bridge science to agree that 4N caters to that hand while J2N then Ace asking is keycard. Anyone who uses Texas and jacoby, for example, already uses a similar sort of approach: 2 level transfer then 4N is quantitative, 4 level transfer then 4N is keycard. How tough is that to remember?

 

 

As for interference, while the odds are that we won't need 4N as just Aces very often, I don't find the chances of a 5-level bid by 4th hand over J2N to happen very often either B-)

 

I find it funny that people who advocate keycard 4N seem to think that those of us who don't ask for keycards on round one of the bidding intend never to ask later.

Fair enough.

The difference is that quantitative invites after notrump are needed and not uncommon. Asking for aces instead of key-cards on round one and that this difference will matter is seldom and I just dislike having to remember agreements, which may occur once or twice in my remaining life span.

I have enough trouble remembering all treatments, which occur twice per year.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[VM1973]

I cannot agree with 4NT because really your hand is not strong enough to put you into the slam zone. If partner doesn't have extras you're not safe at the 5 level. Both 2♦ GF and 2NT should get you off on the right track, though a lot depends on what systems you have in place over 2NT. I'd probably bid 2♦ and support spades later.

 

I'm assuming, also, that the person you were kibbitzing plays 5-card majors.

[Finch]

In the last 6 months I've had two hands that responded 4NT to 1M to ask for aces (one of them was written up in the Daily Telegraph later, we gained a big swing on it for slightly complicated reasons).

I've had no hand where the auction started 1M P and I wanted to ask for keycards directly.

[daveharty]

The two hands were:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sakq74hjt43djca64&n=sj8652h6dakt962c3]133|200[/hv]

 

At the table, the auction was:

 

1S - 4H

5C - 5D

6S - p

 

Easy game! When I asked him about the 4H bid, North cited its preemptive value (compared to a 4C splinter which he also considered), although I personally think the opps are MORE likely to find a heart fit after the heart splinter. In retrospect I think he likes 2D better.

 

I think the discussion regarding the meaning of 1M-4NT is interesting, but it almost leaves aside the question of whether this hand is appropriate for it, whatever your agreements. I think I would be more inclined to approach it more slowly with 2D, it seems like preventing interference isn't the primary consideration here.

[whereagles]

I cannot agree with 4NT because really your hand is not strong enough to put you into the slam zone. If partner doesn't have extras you're not safe at the 5 level.

 

Not strong enough? Come on, this is a slam opposite just about any decent min, e.g.

 

AKxxx

Axx

xx

xxx

 

For the record, I echo Rainer and would also take the risk of bidding the KISS 4NT because the alternatives are pointless:

 

2♦, bar some unexpected struck of luck, is bound to create more confusion than enlightenment.

 

2NT, in its standard variant, has such a ridiculous follow up structure that we can't get anything worthy out of it.

 

4♣/♥ splinters will leave you in the dark if pard bids 4♠, as he probably will with most min hands. Still, it's the only bid besides 4NT that has some technical merit... if you can bring yourself up to pass a 4♠ rebid, that is.

 

So what's left? 4NT. Slightly agricultural but it will work fine most of the time.