awm Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 As far as I'm concerned, it shows one of the following: (1) If less than invitational values, then it shows at least 4-3 in the majors (preferably at least 4-4). When only 4-3, there is a tendency to have "takeout double" shape (i.e. 4342 is fine but 4324 would pass). (2) Holding invitational or better values, it shows at least one four-card major. Here the plan is to bid notrump or correct to diamonds if partner picks the "wrong" major, protected somewhat by the overall values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 When only 4-3, there is a tendency to have "takeout double" shape (i.e. 4342 is fine. Could prove interesting opposite 3-3-4-3. Maybe they will take us out of our 3-3 heart fit and pard can then show four diamonds after passing 2H. But without invitational strength he probably can't bid 3D directly if the 2C overcaller is the one who bids again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantumcat Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 So, if I may...1D - (2C)=========X = hearts2D = nat2H = spades2S = NF t/o2N = nat3C = good raise3D = weak raise3H = forcing t/o3S = offensive hand with hearts Is this right? Yup that's right. Could prove interesting opposite 3-3-4-3. Maybe they will take us out of our 3-3 heart fit and pard can then show four diamonds after passing 2H. But without invitational strength he probably can't bid 3D directly if the 2C overcaller is the one who bids again. With a 3-3-4-3 11-14 count you'd have to choose between rebidding diamonds or bidding 2NT. Responder should remember not to double with a weak hand with both majors and long clubs and short diamonds (but opener will likely have a reopening double if responder has long clubs so he doesn't need to worry about it getting passed out when he has such a hand). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted August 24, 2011 Report Share Posted August 24, 2011 Han was proposing something like x=4+♥, f2d=4+♠, f2♥=5+♥, nf2♠=5+♠, nf but maybe it was a little different. No, double shows spades, 2D shows hearts and denies spades. What you wrote doesn't work so well. For example, after the double, if opener has a 3-4-4-2 distribution he can bid 2H as responder would also double with 4-4 in the majors. You can't do that if double shows hearts. I'll vote for "4+ spades" in the poll as it is what I play (although I don't see it as "taleout", it just shows 4+ spades), but I am not sure what Phil was looking for in this poll. Of course "standard" is at least one major. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted August 24, 2011 Report Share Posted August 24, 2011 Best thing is to agree with your partner.[/size][/font] Uh, yeah... all of the treatments discussed here assume having an agreement with partner. Was this not obvious? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 No, double shows spades, 2D shows hearts and denies spades. What you wrote doesn't work so well. For example, after the double, if opener has a 3-4-4-2 distribution he can bid 2H as responder would also double with 4-4 in the majors. You can't do that if double shows hearts.I am not sure I really understand this han. If Responder bids 2D = spades with 4-4 majors why can Opener not bid 2H with 3442 shape? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 I am not sure I really understand this han. If Responder bids 2D = spades with 4-4 majors 2D shows hearts and denies spades. Hope that clears it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Sorry, perhaps I was not clear. Han wrote that the scheme where double shows hearts and 2D shows spades does not work so well because you then cannot stop in hearts with both majors. This is true if you double (showing hearts) with both majors but if you choose to bid 2D (showing spades) with this distribution then it seems that it works just as well as double showing spades. I suspect I might be missing something here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurpoa Posted August 25, 2011 Report Share Posted August 25, 2011 Uh, yeah... all of the treatments discussed here assume having an agreement with partner. Was this not obvious? Good !what is your agreement ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Sorry, perhaps I was not clear. Han wrote that the scheme where double shows hearts and 2D shows spades does not work so well because you then cannot stop in hearts with both majors. This is true if you double (showing hearts) with both majors but if you choose to bid 2D (showing spades) with this distribution then it seems that it works just as well as double showing spades. I suspect I might be missing something here. Sorry, I didn't see your question earlier. I think you are missing that 2D is NF and can't be made with GF hands. We can double with any strength. Therefore if only call may be made with both majors, it has to be the double. The main reason we play this structure is that we want to specify our major suit holdings as quickly as possible. There are more reasons why one would like to play it this way. If you have both majors, it is often more convenient to show spades and maybe hearts than hearts and maybe spades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Oh by the way, the structure we play is different from what gwnn wrote in other ways as well. 2M is forcing. We play that 3M is natural with 7-9 points and 3C is GF with exactly 4 hearts (but not 4 spades). I have never played negative freebids here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Strange. My memory plays tricks on me. So did you make the red suit lengths of 2♦ more defined? 4+H, 0+ diamonds, NF still seems like an unsound definition to me, how do you cope with this loose definition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxhong Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 I actually like this one:x: 4+ H, 8+ HCPs.2D: natural.2H: 4+ S, 8+ HCPs.2S: transfer to NT, either inv or mild slam invitation.2N: limit raise or better D raise.3C: constructive D raise with 5D.3D: 6+H, inv or better. 3H: 6+S, inv or better.3S: transfer to 3NT.3N: RKC in D. See poll. Thanks 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted September 2, 2011 Report Share Posted September 2, 2011 So did you make the red suit lengths of 2♦ more defined? 4+H, 0+ diamonds, NF still seems like an unsound definition to me, how do you cope with this loose definition? 2H is natural and forcing, 3C is GF with exactly 4 hearts and 3H is about 7-9 with good 6+ hearts. So typically we have 4-5 hearts for 2D. We deny 4 spades, so unless we are 3505 (!) we will have diamonds, usually 2-4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 Han, is 2NT an artificial raise? And 2♦ can be up to invitational when you have exactly 4 hearts? Very interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Thank you for the follow-ups here han, I was away from a computer myself for a while so can apologise in turn for a late reply. I am slowly filling in the gaps to your method and it is, as cherdano says, very interesting. If I may repeat the same trick as with Quantumcat's system, do I have it all correct here now? 1D - 2C=======X = 4+ spades2D = 4-5(bad 6) hearts, nf2H = 5+ hearts, f12S = 5+ spades, f12N = good diamond raise?3C = 4 hearts, gf3D = weak diamond raise?3H = 6+ (good) hearts, ~7-93S = 6+ (good) spades, ~7-9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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