know your opponent before going to war

[vianu2]

Selectively posting psychs that work and bragging about them seems like poor form. Admitting to routinely psyching on particular hands does imply concealed partnership agreements and, imo, questionable ethics.

 

Mat i am not native , is my english as bad as you (and not only you ) started to discuss here about "routinely psyching"?

When i said "i like" i meant "i like" not " i do", and not " i do routinely".

I think that word , with a nebulously-defined connotation , just created a gap in thinking or brain functioning to lot of people.

 

I wanted to avoid here an outright opinion or statement of fact that I might be challenged over and over or that someone might take offence at. If there is something i say way too much...in my post..I just don't know how to recover.

 

I just found amusing to discuss about psyches and not only about "selective psychs that work".

I can post one that didn't work:)

 

P>S>

Browsing in an urban dictionary i found billion connotations of that word "like" . It seems it is every third word used in some areas ..

[vianu2]

EDIT: I also find it interesting how on the last hand your partner knew what everyone else scored right after the play. Considering you were playing a live tournament he must have beeen psychic!

 

7 years ago we still used to write down on the papers the result (now we had evolved)). When you finish to play the board you know the results from your room (or something like that , i never bothered about that, that was my partners job).

 

Now i will tell you a very short story that came into my mind, about ruining games...

"I think you should take into consideration that you are ruining the game for at least 3 players

at the expense of your entertainment" you say.

Well, once i played in a teams competition. One match i bid in cards and i had only big hands and my partner wrote down on the paper: +100, +1100 , +800 , +620, +300, +1100, +200 ( almost cold 3NT!! ), +920. Ok, he congratulated me at the end for those nice results, hoping to a 25-0 but i didn't get very excited. 2 of those 1100 and 800 had nothing to do with the bridge, opponents just have gone wild and messed up the system. Why not very excited ? Ha. Our teamates messed up much more! -1400!! -1100!! and so on.

We lost that match!! I couldn't believe it, but we lost, and i think the score was 20 for opponents lol. ( i just left the room and didn't bothered).

Those are the players whose game i am ruining with my psyches.

[JLOGIC]

Psyching is an emotional subject in bridge, and a controversial one. I think psyches should be able to be posted and discussed similar to normal bridge hands, eg "is this a good psyche, is this a bad psyche" etc, but I doubt it is actually possible as so many people are anti-psyche, and few have much experience with them at all in order to have a discussion.

 

I tried to reply to your thread with criticism of your various psyches. That said, you are getting flamed a lot because you did seem like you were bragging about them rather than discussing their merits. Sure, you posted them as interesting/amusing stories, and maybe you weren't bragging, but it came off that way. Most people aren't amused by psyches, now you know, I learned this the hard way :P

 

On a serious note I think it is good in a players development to be able to try various psyches and tactics, and see how they work. Sometimes a psyche might be a good strategy, but it's hard to know when/if it is if you never try and and no one ever writes about them.

 

I think posts like this:

 

Admitting to routinely psyching on particular hands does imply concealed partnership agreements and, imo, questionable ethics.

 

Are wrong, maybe with a certain hand type you will always psyche given a certain set of conditions, maybe you choose different psyches or have many different partners (if you make the same psyche always but with a different partner each time, no problem in that, and I think most people don't have someone they play with near exclusively).

 

I also think implications of cheating are wrong, obviously these are hand selected for ones that work since he is the one posting them.

 

I think this is right on though:

 

You claim you psyche frequently for entertainment but I think you should take into consideration that you are ruining the game for at least 3 players at the expense of your entertainment.

 

I don't know how to reconcile that with me thinking that everyone needs experience seeing how various psyches work. As I said, I once got banned for psyching every hand with 3 friends, I was thinking at least then I wasn't ruining the fun of my partner/opps since we were just trying things out, but as jschaefer mentioned it's annoying to the field. I guess be careful the situations you choose to try it in, and how frequently.

 

I also don't know how to reconcile "general bridge knowledge" and "implicit partnership agreements." For instance, when I am down 60 with 1 quarter to go in the spingold, I frequently psyche. Do my partner and I have an implicit and illegal agreement? Maybe technically, I am not sure, but it is also general bridge knowledge that people who are down will swing and be less likely to have their bids. Even with specific bids, I think every good bridge player knows a 3rd seat white 1N opener will be suspect against someone who is swinging. I recently played a match where my opponents were down 85 and picked up almost all of it by taking actions that would normally be ridiculous, some people even criticized them for doing this saying it's disrespectful to the game! What? Not trying your best to win the match would be disrespectful to the game, what they did was beautiful (imo).

 

All that said, this is good player vs good player, psyching vs bad players is not a good idea usually imo, but if you are also a non expert then I still don't think it's bad. Just be careful about it not to ruin the fun of other people.

 

Side note:

 

I am a huge believer morally/ethically/whatever in not psyching at the club vs weakish opps. I was playing at the club recently with a friend and I had AQJT xxx xxxx xx white against red, and opened 1S in third seat. The opps were people who I would say I would never psyche against. My partner mentioned that I psyched, and I was kind of surprised. I'm not trying to turn this into a semantics debate, I genuinely just believe at matchpoints it would be criminal to not get your spade lead in at this point. I feel like there is a fundamental difference in doing this and opening 1N 3rd w/r with xx xx QJx QJT9xx which I am 100 % sure would be a huge winner at the club and like stealing candy from babies, but also would be wrong. In that case I'm bidding just to steal from them and misrespresenting my hand grossly to do so, knowing they don't have the tools to recover from it. This just seems bad for the game. But AQJT I am bidding spades in order to get a spade lead, and if partner competes in spades I am happy. It is not a stealing thing at all, just consider p p p 1N p 3N vs p p 1S 1N p 3N... 1S just seems like a bridge action to me. So:

 

1) Should I not make this bid if I believe in not psyching at the club?

2) Is there a difference morally in this and a psyche like the 1N opener, even if semantically they are both a psyche?

3) Is this technically a psyche? What if you added a jack or a queen? If I would always open 1S with this, do I have an implicit partnership agreement to psyche (even if very light 3rd hand is marked on the card, 4 card suits in 3rd marked on the card, etc)? FWIW I was playing with someone I had only played once with before.

4) Now that she has seen this, should she alert my 3rd seat white openers as could be light with a lead director? Against good opps should she, or does this fall under general bridge knowledge that third seat white bids at MP can be light and lead directional?

 

These all seem unclear to me. Fred told me about a well known player who thinks if you bid a suit when you have the suit and want it led, your action is not a psyche in third seat no matter what. I am way past the point that I get my rocks off from stealing from people at the club, I am not trying to ruin anyones fun, but I also play at the club in order to play bridge, so hopefully you won't judge me too harshly for bidding 1S as I feel it is just the right bridge bid.

[Foxx]

Sounds to me cool something like that :I am like, I like you a lot, wanna go out....

 

Good luck, Borat.

[awm]

1) Should I not make this bid if I believe in not psyching at the club?

2) Is there a difference morally in this and a psyche like the 1N opener, even if semantically they are both a psyche?

3) Is this technically a psyche? What if you added a jack or a queen? If I would always open 1S with this, do I have an implicit partnership agreement to psyche (even if very light 3rd hand is marked on the card, 4 card suits in 3rd marked on the card, etc)? FWIW I was playing with someone I had only played once with before.

4) Now that she has seen this, should she alert my 3rd seat white openers as could be light with a lead director? Against good opps should she, or does this fall under general bridge knowledge that third seat white bids at MP can be light and lead directional?

 

Here are a couple definitions of "psych" or "psychic bid."

 

ACBL: A deliberate and gross misstatement of honor strength or suit length.

Wikipedia: A call that grossly misstates high card strength or distribution, made so as to deceive the opponents.

 

It seems that in order to be a psych, the call has to be a "gross misstatement." Who knows what that means, but it seems like if your agreement is that a third-seat 1♠ opening can be as light as 8 or 9 points and can be a four-card suit, the fact that you are off a side jack doesn't qualify as a "gross misstatement." Provided that you have light third seat openings marked on your card I don't see a real issue with this. A literal reading of ACBL alert policy suggests that an agreement to open very light in 3rd seat requires both a pre-alert and an alert during the auction... but in practice I think this is "just bridge" and you will never get in trouble for failing to alert/pre-alert this.

 

So my answers would be that it's not a psych, that it's different from the 1N opener (which is a psych, since it is a gross misstatement of honor strength and also made with intent to deceive opponents), and that your partner probably should alert your 3rd seat white opening, but that in practice almost nobody does and no director is likely to rule against you.

[the hog]

Too small of a sample to confirm this with empirical evidence :P

 

Well I agree with this one too, so the sample has just doubled in size.

[the hog]

Rossoneri whether u are sure or not about that, for me is irrelevant and it becomes annoying. There are lot of areas to experience and share your excellent bridge knowledge and wisdom . In addition, i just not comment here boards played on BBO, Can you enter this into your head?!

 

Even your last phrase here shows that you are not a pleasant person. There is no need to be rude to people, particularly when the post was a reply to Justin and not to one of yours.

[vianu2]

Even your last phrase here shows that you are not a pleasant person. There is no need to be rude to people, particularly when the post was a reply to Justin and not to one of yours.

 

So you pretend he just replied to Justin? There are comments over two pages about psyching on bbo, leaving the table on bbo. posting boards played on bbo , when i claimed right from the start "the boards are played in real tourneys".

So what was he looking for? So I didn't perceived his intrusion as enjoyable and useful for my purpose.

[the hog]

Good luck, Borat.

 

No Foxx, Borat is funny and intelligent - well Sascha Baron Cohen is anyway.

[vianu2]

To the disappointment of some (or more ))) i will continue to post here.

I had no intention to talk only about psyches . I meant to generally talk about knowing your opponent and to adapt on the fly to his bridge level. In a club competition or even in regional events, over 50% of players are low level ( at least here, where i am). So you just cannot read their bidding or play, and then you get to misjudgements and bad decisions.

I can post lot of boards in which i played the dumb role.

I have many , i will post one (not sure if so representative).

I was playing with someone known as a good but very imaginative player:)

 

Once, he said to me something like that:

" I ( "he") played 10 years alone (ignoring my partner because he was clueless), then i played another 10 in partnership (because i decided to give him credit) but that didn't work too:) then now i decided for the last 20 to play "the four hands" or "the four players" and nobody will stop me" .

 

Here i opened first position ( having real opening ..) 1NT and he decided , at matchpoints, to not pass a 3-3-5-2 hand with diamonds headed by KJ , but to bid Stayman 2CL.

In our club we not alert that 2CL ( is a consensus that it can be weak i think) but anyway it comes very rarely.

My RHO was an weak player but i didn't know.

He doubled that 2CL (t/o in his mind , which is absurd i think).

Anyway opponents didn't have agreements so the X can't be t/o.

At the moment i was convinced he just showed clubs and i redoubled to play it .

When my partner ran in 2D for me wasn't clear that his 2CL didn't show points.

He will always run with single/void in CL..

We didn't agree about that but I had the feeling that he could have bid an weak 2CL.

I bid 2NT in case my partner wasn't weak, because i had diamond fit .

Now LHO bid 3CL ! And pass, pass...to me, being astonished.

At that moment my partner's 2CL just worked :D. Opponents had a good heart fit and they could write 140 in that board.

But no...i couldn't pass:) I doubled:) In my mind , if RHO passed 3CL then he has clubs wtf...

Of course my partner ran in 3D easy to double by RHO and we got 500 and a 0%.

That's life.

I don't know if opponents will ever come to a contract in hearts..if my partner passes 1NT. 1NT-pass is bad enough lol . But he criticized me a lot for my X in 3cl ( i think he was right ...)

[hv=pc=n&s=sat5hkqt8daq87c43&w=skq87ha7dt96caqt8&n=sj96hj965d5ckj976&e=s432h432dkj432c52&d=w&v=e&b=16&a=1np2c(stayman)drp2dp2n3cppdp3ddppp]399|300[/hv]

[gwnn]

2♦ must be weak in that case because there's no other bid with a weak hand that wanted to pass 2♦. 2♥ is weak for a similar reason (5-4 or 4-5 or 4-4 in the majors, whichever way you play it).

[kenberg]

At my second turn turn to bid, I would reason as follows:

Partner knows I have an opening NT count and he knows, from my XX, that I have values in clubs. If it is right to play these hands in some number of NT, I trust that he would have bid some number of NT. He didn't, so I pass 2♦. And then, if lho (who is probably wondering how a deck can have so many clubs in it) bids 3♣, I will pass that too.

 

There have been times when I make somewhat pushy bids based on my assessment of the opponents but 2NT at my second turn is way over the top.

 

In keeping with the general theme of the thread, knowing partner and opponents, I guess bidding 2NT means "Partner, I am supposing that you have the values for a raise to 2NT but you are too dumb to bid it, so I will". Am I reading this right? If so, I would imagine that you have trouble keeping partners.

[mgoetze]

There is no need to be rude to people,

 

Wish you could always keep that in mind, Hog.

[vianu2]

In keeping with the general theme of the thread, knowing partner and opponents, I guess bidding 2NT means "Partner, I am supposing that you have the values for a raise to 2NT but you are too dumb to bid it, so I will". Am I reading this right? If so, I would imagine that you have trouble keeping partners.

 

No, i didn't seriously think to the fact that 2CL might be weak that's all. People often get nervous when i bid 2CL like that and they think that is a psyche. But let's say i would pass 2D and LHO come in with 3CL. I would double again (excuse me) wtf is mp and i have some trics. And partner should pass anyway . I said i agree with him as i was dumb, but 3D cannot be better. He reasoned that if i X 3CL opponents will not stay here and they will finally find their fit...then he was anticipative with 3D :D rofl

[kenberg]

Looking back at the hands I suppose that when 2♦ comes back to me I might try 2♠. It's a horrible contract as the cards lie but after all partner did bid 2♣. He must have been prepared for a 2♠ response to his 2♣ so I might give it a shot. It might be down 2 or 3 tricks but it may not be so easy for them to double here. My guess is that they contest to 3♣. Now, having shown my count, shown my club values and shown my spade suit, I can't imagine overruling any decision partner makes.

 

Btw, I also would not have bid 3♦ with your partner's hand. My view would be that I said my piece when I pulled the XX, and if partner now doubles 3♣ that's his choice. I suppose there are nine tricks in clubs, but of course you have a reasonable expectation that the club honors will be placed differently. Counting on three clubs, a spade and a heart probably isn't crazy, but it's no sure bet either. For example, even if the clubs are where you think, there are various trump coups that even an inexperienced player might execute without having to know what he is doing. He isn't going to just hand you all of those club tricks.

 

As to them suddenly finding their heart fit after 3♣ is doubled, I think that as a practical matter you can forget it. For either of them to call 3♥ would be a total shot in the dark. Such things happen, but I think the far bigger worry is that 3♣ X may come in.

 

Fwiw, if I do bid 2♠ over 2♦ and we eventually defend a club contract declared on my left (as it would be) I have upped the chances of a spade lead from partner at trick 1. This is good.

[babushkka]

I was playing in a team match once where one of the opps psyched about 5 of the 8 hands. But somehow he kept winning IMPs every hand. Ridiculous stuff like opening 1nt with a 3 count and 6 clubs in 1st seat. Sure enough when my partner and I reach 4h, and his partner doubles, he now pulls to 5cx and gets rewarded with 5 clubs in the dummy. I didn't mind him psyching early on, but when he continued to psyche the final few hands when he was well ahead I was way pissed. Then he apologized to his teammates for dropping an IMP on one board. Only time I completely outraged on BBO...

[the hog]

Wish you could always keep that in mind, Hog.

 

Pot calling kettle?

[mgoetze]

Pot calling kettle?

 

Yes, that's exactly what I thought when I saw your post.

[the hog]

Yes, that's exactly what I thought when I saw your post.

 

Thank you for agreeing with me. Unlike you I am not rude, I just don't suffer fools gladly.

[ggwhiz]

My favorite psyche was a double one by my partner in an out of town Regional. He opened 1nt on a 2 count in first chair and it worked.

 

The opps SCREAMED for a Director who noted no fielding, no adjustment and started to walk away. They then SCREAMED for a recorder form which he brought and jumped into my partners face with WHAT'S YOUR NAME!

 

He gave them mine.

[655321]

My favorite psyche was a double one by my partner in an out of town Regional. He opened 1nt on a 2 count in first chair and it worked.

 

The opps SCREAMED for a Director who noted no fielding, no adjustment and started to walk away. They then SCREAMED for a recorder form which he brought and jumped into my partners face with WHAT'S YOUR NAME!

 

He gave them mine.

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=39623&view=findpost&p=467330

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=40418&view=findpost&p=479763

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=44454&view=findpost&p=530031

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45233&view=findpost&p=544666

[dustinst22]

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=39623&view=findpost&p=467330

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=40418&view=findpost&p=479763

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=44454&view=findpost&p=530031

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45233&view=findpost&p=544666

 

 

lol, some people like telling the same story over and over.

[slothy]

Lol, it does really amaze me what the motivation was behind the thread creation and the inflammatory title he gave it.

 

Just to echo the majority of the repliers: hrothy, hoggy, jlogic, et al and to attempt to rephrase into an amusing metaphor: he seemed to arrogantly wave his head above the parapet and then was resentful when people started to take pot-shots at him.

 

If he meant it as a humorous display of his bridge savviness (and failure to appreciate that he was lucky to get away with most of them) it reminds me of the pheasant who stuck peacock feathers on his back to attract a mate more successfully. He was still shot in a pheasant-shoot because, after all, he was still identified as a pheasant, just lacking the natural camouflage and the feathers made him 4 times more noticeable. Also, he shouldnt indict others of not having his same sense of humour.

 

Alex

[Wackojack]

Consider: Will the 2NT psyche on a balanced 6 at green gain or lose in the long run? Say partner has a balanced hand also. Then these are the possibilities in decreasing liklihood:

 

HCP HCP

We Opps Imps We Opps Imps

Most likely 17 23 -4 not dbled

Less likely 18 22 -3 or -10 16 24 -3

Less likely 19 21 -4 or -16 15 25 +9 assuming undoubled

 

Looks like most of the time you are on to a small loss if you are lucky and a big loss if you luck runs out. If you happen to find your partner with a far less than likely 6-9HCP and your opponents dont find a double then you can crow.

 

PS Sorry the table inserted does not arrange as pasted. Hope readers can decifer.