Converting a take-out double

[Bbradley62]

Shouldn't North do something else?

[hv=lin=pn|bbradley62,~~M56829,~~M56827,~~M56828|st%7C%7Cmd%7C2S589KH89KAD467ACQ%2CS2H3D8JQC23578TKA%2CS36JH47TQD239TC49%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%208%7Csv%7Co%7Cmb%7C4C%7Can%7CPreempt%20--%207%2B%20C%3B%209-%20HCP%3B%203%2B%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cd%7Can%7CTakeout%20double%20--%202-%20C%3B%203-5%20D%3B%203-4%20H%3B%203-%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CSK%7C]360|270[/hv]

[ArtK78]

Of course North should do something else. My experience with GIB is that it converts far more takeout doubles to penalties than any human player would, and it pulls clear penalty doubles extremely often (usually with disastrous results).

[jmcw]

I'm not sure what North "should" do. I would bid 4♥ but I'm uncertain if this is correct.

 

I can imagine many layouts where 4♣X is our last chance for a plus.

[croquetfan]

GIB seems to have a problem over preempts.

I played a robot reward today and GIB passed what I would consider clear takeouts, costing millions.

 

If LHO opens 4C -p - p - what should I bid for takeout? GIB passed my X with a singleton club and they made 11 tricks.

[pigpenz]

GIB seems to have a problem over preempts.

I played a robot reward today and GIB passed what I would consider clear takeouts, costing millions.

 

If LHO opens 4C -p - p - what should I bid for takeout? GIB passed my X with a singleton club and they made 11 tricks.

What allows 4♣x to make is also what would lead to 4♥x to go for -500. 4 ♣x may very well be the last chance to go plus....you are what they call FIXED!

[pigpenz]

using deal master pro to run a simulation on this particular hand

north what should they do.....

4♣ makes 50% of time

4♥ makes 21%

4♠ makes 7%

 

so probably the problem is not necessarily what north should do, but

what south should do when it goes 4♣ pass pass (south call)

 

looks like double leads to minus score the majority of the time no matter what you do

 

the constraints i used

were the actual north hand

West 8 clubs with some combo of 2/3 top honors

and south 16hcp 4441

i could change south to possiblity of 4-5 majors etc and may improve %

[helene_t]

Of course North should do something else. My experience with GIB is that it converts far more takeout doubles to penalties than any human player would, and it pulls clear penalty doubles extremely often (usually with disastrous results).

The general problem is that many doubles are ill-defined. If you mouse over them you see that they are defined as adding no further information to what is already known. If they were defined in a sensible way in the gib system then I think gib would usually respond sensibly.

 

With this particular hand it is not so clear what to do. Obviously it depends on partner's doubling tendencies but I think I would pass also. But I have seen it pass a 2-level t/o double with similar shape.

[pigpenz]

The general problem is that many doubles are ill-defined. If you mouse over them you see that they are defined as adding no further information to what is already known. If they were defined in a sensible way in the gib system then I think gib would usually respond sensibly.

 

With this particular hand it is not so clear what to do. Obviously it depends on partner's doubling tendencies but I think I would pass also. But I have seen it pass a 2-level t/o double with similar shape.

yes the pre empt did its job there is no clear cut answer as to what is right

you could have hands where south makes a takeout double on 5341 hands and you will end up in 4-3 heart fit

[manudude03]

Link to hand

 

Just another example of this (at a low level)

[pigpenz]

Link to hand

 

Just another example of this (at a low level)

in the old days we would come back to the table and just say they played 1NT making four.

risk vs reward might be worth it at a low level like this especially at matchpoints, this is an entirley different beast

then the one where the opps open 4♣...[hv=pc=n&s=sahkjt9dat84cak43&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=p1nd2hp2s]133|200[/hv]

 

so if we are afraid of GIB what is the best call we can make here

2NT take out

double penalty or take out

 

so which call is least likely to be missed by GIB

at the table I bid 2NT so gib bid 3NT down one

double would have been better

once GIB gets into your head your in trouble :lol:

[Bbradley62]

Another one today:

[hv=lin=pn|bbradley62,~~M13267,~~M13265,~~M13266|st%7C%7Cmd%7C1S9JQH3TQKAD58C3QA%2CS68AH5JD2467QAC47%2CS24KH678D39TJC59T%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%207%7Csv%7Cb%7Cmb%7C1H%7Can%7CMajor%20suit%20opening%20--%205%2B%20H%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%201%7Cmb%7C2D%7Can%7CTwo-level%20overcall%20--%205%2B%20D%3B%2010%2B%20HCP%3B%2011-18%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cd%7Can%7C3%2B%20C%3B%202-%20D%3B%205-7%20H%3B%203%2B%20S%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-2%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CSJ%7C]360|270[/hv]

[barmar]

That seems to have worked out well, since I don't think you can do better than 9 tricks in hearts. You need to get to dummy twice to finesse clubs, and the ♠K is the only entry. Although West might open lead a club, which solves the problem for you. But you were never going to bid 4♥, so it's just a matter of overtricks in a part-score.

 

3NT is also makable, but you weren't bidding that, either.

 

But I can't imagine any human sitting for that double.

[mgoetze]

Here's one which didn't work out well

 

[hv=sn=someone&s=SKH965DJT7CAKQT93&wn=Robot&w=SAQT965HK72D42C54&nn=Robot&n=S73HQ43DAK983CJ62&en=Robot&e=SJ842HAJT8DQ65C87&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=2S%28Weak%20two%20bid%20--%201-4%20C%3B%201-4%20D%3B%201-3%20H%3B%206%20S%3B%2010-%20HCP%3B%209+%20total%20points%29P3S%28The%20Law%3A%209%20trump%20-%3E%203%20level%20--%203+%20S%3B%204-14%20total%20points%29D%28Takeout%20double%20--%203-5%20C%3B%203-5%20D%3B%203-4%20H%3B%202-%20S%3B%2014+%20total%20points%29PPP&p=DKD5D7D4C6C8CQC4DTD2DAD6C2C7CKC5DJH2D3DQS8SKSAS7S9S3S2C3H7H3HAH5H8H6HKH4STD9S4C9S5D8SJCTHJH9SQHQS6CJHTCA]480|360[/hv]

[helene_t]

5♦ would go for -800 so it could have been worse. I don´t think GIB's pass is ridiculous although it wouldn't have been my choice.

[mgoetze]

5♦ would go for -800 so it could have been worse. I don´t think GIB's pass is ridiculous although it wouldn't have been my choice.

 

Well let's just say that if I were North I would definitely bid 4♦, mainly because I would be expecting South to have a, uh, somewhat different hand. ;)

[barmar]

It chose to convert the double instead of bidding a 7-card suit!

 

[hv=sn=barmar&s=SAQ4HJ53DKQT642CA&wn=Robot&w=SJ87532HA4DJ973CQ&nn=Robot&n=S9HKQT9876D85C732&en=Robot&e=SKT6H2DACKJT98654&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=4C(Preempt%20--%207+%20C%3B%209-%20HCP%3B%203+%20total%20points)D(Takeout%20double%20--%202-%20C%3B%203-5%20D%3B%203-4%20H%3B%203-)PPP&p=DKD7D5DAC6CACQC2H3HAH6H2D3D8CKD2CJD4S2C7C9D6S3C3CTDTS5H9C8S4S7HTSKSAS8S9DQDJH7C4STSQSJH8H5H4HQC5S6HJD9HK]400|300[/hv]

 

There is a defense to set it: {SP]A, ♠ ruff, ♣ to Ace, ♠ ruff. Even if I found the first two tricks, what's the chance that North would figure out to get to my hand with a club?

 

But this is moot, since we can make 4♥.

[Bbradley62]

Even if I found the first two tricks, what's the chance that North would figure out to get to my hand with a club?

Why would North have to figure this out? Wouldn't you get in when declarer drew trump?

 

But yes, it's completely ridiculous to leave that double in.

[pigpenz]

even if you whole hand was only 10xxxxxx♥ i would bid 4♥

[Bbradley62]

Another example. IMPs, by the way...[hv=lin=pn|bbradley62,~~M45996,~~M45994,~~M45995|st%7C%7Cmd%7C2S5789KH3QKD8C237A%2CS24TH257TD57JKACK%2CSQH6JAD349C4568TQ%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%204%7Csv%7Cb%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C1S%7Can%7CMajor%20suit%20opening%20--%205%2B%20S%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%201%7Cmb%7C2D%7Can%7CTwo-level%20overcall%20--%205%2B%20D%3B%2010-11%20HCP%3B%2011-12%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cd%7Can%7C3%2B%20C%3B%202-%20D%3B%203%2B%20H%3B%205-7%20S%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-2%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CHA%7C]360|270[/hv]