BBF suit symbol abuse

[matmat]

Thank you for that apparently very wise, deep post hotShot. Four problems with it:

 

• 
  
• some people do not like the "ignore user function", because it can create confusion, a notable example being unblocked replies to blocked posts.
  

 

A small clickable phrase shows up where the blocked person's post would have been. you can click on that to expand if you need to be able to see the post to understand whatever reference someone else is making.

[inquiry]

Mods, this is ridiculous, look at Lurpoa. She thinks she is some sort of hippyfairy, she is flooding the forums with her obnoxious objections. She seems to hate short posts and off-topic/funny posts. Fair enough. She can ask for clarification, but the gratuitous heart symbols are obviously annoying to a lot of people (8 people upvoted the opening post of Free but it is very likely there are others out there) - and what is your response? Edit Free's post.

 

 

Free asked that long string of hearts be blocked, using long strings of hearts. This is a trivial and non-trivial problem, as noted by Free's post with heart space heart as only one way to get around the limitations. A thousand hearts in a row would leave a lot of hearts left in the string after the program does it thing. Free's post was "edit" in effect because of the very limitation he was seeking. Truely harsh critics here, complaining when people get what they want........ :)

[Antrax]

The lengths you would have to go to, to stop someone from embedding a long string of hearts in their posts, would damage many of the capabilities of the forum for many users. I couldn't agree more with hotShot, and generally I'm not sure why some very smart people waste their time with such nonsense. Also, it makes me feel dirty but I do agree with Lurpoa to some extent wrt "wtp" posts, frequent hijacks to make in-jokes and the existence of a small group of posters that consistently back each other up on every issue.

[gwnn]

The lengths you would have to go to, to stop someone from embedding a long string of hearts in their posts, would damage many of the capabilities of the forum for many users.

Could you explain more clearly what do you mean by this? What are those "many capabilities" that would be damaged?

I couldn't agree more with hotShot, and generally I'm not sure why some very smart people waste their time with such nonsense.

Even though I wouldn't call myself very smart, I am tempted to reply to this: I am simply annoyed by someone calling a 1 worded post by me "forum abuse", and annoyed at that particular tone of voice. I can't help being annoyed. You are not annoyed, well done you. I am sure there are things out there that annoy you but not me - it's just the way the world works. You should accept that there are people who see certain things differently than you. Apparently 9 people agreed with Free, so wtp? Why is your view better than these 9 people's?

Also, it makes me feel dirty but I do agree with Lurpoa to some extent wrt "wtp" posts, frequent hijacks to make in-jokes

So far as I know, she did not reply to any wtp posts. Indeed jlogic, phil and I replied to a thread with 6 words total, but just tell me, which would you prefer: 1 worders or nothing? And I don't want to sound like a broken record about reasoning in bridge, I just want to say that I double on that hand because I think it looks more like a double than a 3♦ bid. Some other hands would look more like a 3♦ bid than a double.

the existence of a small group of posters that consistently back each other up on every issue.

I think you mean hotshot and Antrax who apparently upvote each other's posts :) Seriously though, yes indeed, there are groups of people who like each other's posts more than other groups, but isn't that just normal? And I might add that sometimes when a certain group of posters always agree with each other and another group of posters always disagree with the former group, it is simply because the former group is better in bridge than the latter. I guess it is elitist that smart people agree with each other and disagree with outsiders, but it is what it is. Please note that I would never include myself in the group of smart people, especially on BBF.

[Free]

The lengths you would have to go to, to stop someone from embedding a long string of hearts in their posts, would damage many of the capabilities of the forum for many users.

I don't know any useful capability for which you require multiple consecutive suit symbols. Please enlighten me.

[mtvesuvius]

I don't know any useful capability for which you require multiple consecutive suit symbols. Please enlighten me.

Annoying people is not a useful capability? Since when? :)

[matmat]

Long post redacted.

 

I need my downvotes back.

[Antrax]

Could you explain more clearly what do you mean by this? What are those "many capabilities" that would be damaged?

There was a reason I didn't specify exactly what I meant. I'll PM it to gwnn, I'm not in the habit of helping annoying people be more annoying.

You should accept that there are people who see certain things differently than you. Apparently 9 people agreed with Free, so wtp? Why is your view better than these 9 people's?

Should I ensure my view is better than that of 9 people whenever I want to express my opinion?

So far as I know, she did not reply to any wtp posts. Indeed jlogic, phil and I replied to a thread with 6 words total, but just tell me, which would you prefer: 1 worders or nothing? And I don't want to sound like a broken record about reasoning in bridge, I just want to say that I double on that hand because I think it looks more like a double than a 3♦ bid. Some other hands would look more like a 3♦ bid than a double.

I would prefer nothing, but that's just the nature of the questions I ask, I suspect. I worry I'll be given an answer I don't understand but others do, at which point said others might not elaborate. But this is a different discussion that you guys had twice already, I think.

It's actually not that important to me, I'm pretty sure she's disingenuous when she complains about potentially unhelpful answers. So while I agree with her, I disagree with her motivation.

Seriously though, yes indeed, there are groups of people who like each other's posts more than other groups, but isn't that just normal?

Of course it's normal, the thing people are best at is dividing themselves into groups and then hating people outside their group. Still, it makes the forum a less welcoming place than it might otherwise be.

[JLOGIC]

Pretty sure there is nothing wrong in replying with a one line/bid answer in reply to a bidding problem. People also make polls, is it not more useful when people reply with their answers rather than just vote (pretty sure BBF doesn't have public polls)? I feel like we had this debate a few years ago, yes a more detailed reply is better than stating what you'd bid, but I find it hard to believe that stating what you'd bid is worse than nothing to most people. What does it hurt? Likewise, a "3D wtp" is useful in that it states that the person thinks 3D is an obvious bid. What's the problem in that? Even if you in particular don't benefit anything from it, does it really hurt your experience so much that you'd rather have it not happen when others might benefit from it?

 

To be honest it feels like people whining about a non thorough answer feel entitled to one, and are really whining that they would have preferred a better answer.

 

the existence of a small group of posters that consistently back each other up on every issue.

 

What group is that? lol. I mean seriously do you think there is some conspiracy involved there, or is it more likely that some people often agree with each other (Yes, 7+ years of posting with other people will cause some amount of group think on some issues, that is normal. Likewise, good bridge players will often agree on bridge issues. Do you actually think anyone is backing other people up in bridge threads out of friendship? I am not sure if I'm included in this group you're talking about, but if so I think it's pretty obvious that I frequently post when I think my friends are wrong, in fact I'm more likely to and to put more effort into it when I think someone like gnasher or 655321 or whoever is wrong, not less likely).

 

Finally61 once said there was a mutual admiration society here. I don't really see it. When someone is wrong, people are likely to agree about it. Some people are often wrong. Etc, etc. I really doubt the causation of the same people backing each other up is friendship, it is just like mindedness which might lead to friendship.

 

Of course it's normal, the thing people are best at is dividing themselves into groups and then hating people outside their group. Still, it makes the forum a less welcoming place than it might otherwise be.

 

Hating? Really? Antrax I don't think you are a part of this group you are talking about, has anyone hated on you or made you feel unwelcome? As usual, I believe that the few people who end up outcast/ostracized have themselves to blame. They are not victims of some kind of bullying/conspiracy, as evidenced by the 99 % of other people who manage to not be.

[inquiry]

People also make polls, is it not more useful when people reply with their answers rather than just vote (pretty sure BBF doesn't have public polls)?

 

BBF does have public polls. The person setting up a poll can choose to make it public (or not).

[JLOGIC]

BBF does have public polls. The person setting up a poll can choose to make it public (or not).

 

My bad then! Must have been part of the new software

[the hog]

Does it really matter that Lurpoa uses lots of heart symbols? You can ignore her if it offends you.

[Antrax]

Pretty sure there is nothing wrong in replying with a one line/bid answer in reply to a bidding problem.

I'm pretty sure there's nothing wrong with that, as well. Still, I prefer longer answers, at the current stage in my development.

I find it hard to believe that stating what you'd bid is worse than nothing to most people. What does it hurt? Likewise, a "3D wtp" is useful in that it states that the person thinks 3D is an obvious bid. What's the problem in that? Even if you in particular don't benefit anything from it, does it really hurt your experience so much that you'd rather have it not happen when others might benefit from it?

I believe this was already answered in one of my previous posts. A short unsatisfactory (to me) answer reduces the odds of getting a long answer, and when I open topics I admit I care mostly about enlightening myself, rather than others.

To be honest it feels like people whining about a non thorough answer feel entitled to one, and are really whining that they would have preferred a better answer.

I appreciate your honesty, though I must admit I don't really understand how you tell apart a request from a whine.

 

What group is that? lol. I mean seriously do you think there is some conspiracy involved there, or is it more likely that some people often agree with each other (Yes, 7+ years of posting with other people will cause some amount of group think on some issues, that is normal.

Are you asking who they are so you can argue with me the group is accurate? It seems like you agree some amount of "groupthink" is natural, so what is the point of inquiring exactly who I have in mind?

I agree it's quite natural for friendships to develop and for friends to have each other's backs. Irrespective, this natural tendency also invokes a natural tendency for some people to feel excluded or ganged-up on. This can be viewed as an unfortunate necessity, or not. I choose the latter.

 

Hating? Really? Antrax I don't think you are a part of this group you are talking about, has anyone hated on you or made you feel unwelcome?

I don't think I've given anyone cause to hate me, but indeed I've often felt excluded. Some of my questions never received answers I found satisfactory, some of the jokes went over my head with the original poster not bothering to explain them even when asked about it, and at one point a member of the moderation team ignored me when I contacted him directly, and found no fault in that when called on it. It's not that I cry myself to sleep every night, and after posting here for a while I feel more welcome (and have learned to understand the idiosyncratic use of some acronyms and get some of the references), but certainly I've been welcomed more warmly to other forums on the internet.

[aguahombre]

I have made a note to myself. When I want to refer to people's views on perceived "cliqueism" (is that a word?) I will look under Suggestions for the Software and the thread on suit symbol abuse.

[mgoetze]

I believe this was already answered in one of my previous posts. A short unsatisfactory (to me) answer reduces the odds of getting a long answer, and when I open topics I admit I care mostly about enlightening myself, rather than others.

 

I'm sure you could work out a deal wherein you pay Justin per word, rather than his usual hourly rate.

 

Oh wait, you thought you were entitled to long, thoughtful answers to all your questions for free?

[Elianna]

We already had a debate about the "wtp" posts. I believe that those of us who didn't like them stated our reasons/requests for longer posts, but I hope that we weren't annoying about it (although our idea may have been annoying to others, I understand). It's one thing replying to a three letter post by politely asking the person to elaborate, and it's another to make a passive-aggressive bitch fest that really doesn't elicit a response. At least not a useful one.

 

I don't really feel I have a dog in this particular fight. But if we're voting people off the forums, I have a different candidate. And now I'm going to give others advice that I keep giving myself, and while I'm usually good at following it, I've clearly broken it a few times in the past: DON'T ENGAGE WITH THE CRAZIES!

 

Also, in even more seriousness, a better search function, and perhaps a quiz based on the search function before people can post (so that they know to search for old topics before having yet ANOTHER ratings thread started by a newbie) would help even more. It would help with pile-ons of newbies who post things that are new to them (5 card majors can open NT? AMAZING!) and also could be engineered to show different parts of the forum, so newbies could get more of an idea of what goes where. I might even be willing to help work on this treasure hunt, though I do think that Gwnn might be the best candidate to work on this.

[aguahombre]

Until then, I hope someone simply references an old thread about an old subject to assist people who have recently joined us.

 

I don't mind doing so, when I can; but it is strictly from memory and sophomoric research on my part. There are others, such as Gwnn who are more competent. The important thing IMO is for us not to write anything which could be taken as snobbish to people who are unaware of previous ad nauseums.

 

On "WTP?" posts, the only ones which annoy me are those which appear in threads where different viewpoints are in the process of being discussed.

[mgoetze]

Also, in even more seriousness, a better search function, and perhaps a quiz based on the search function before people can post (so that they know to search for old topics before having yet ANOTHER ratings thread started by a newbie) would help even more. It would help with pile-ons of newbies who post things that are new to them (5 card majors can open NT? AMAZING!) and also could be engineered to show different parts of the forum, so newbies could get more of an idea of what goes where. I might even be willing to help work on this treasure hunt, though I do think that Gwnn might be the best candidate to work on this.

 

Or petition the moderators to pin the thread announcing my Systems Index (and send me more suggestions which threads should be included).

[Bbradley62]

I tried to look up the old "wtp" debate, but the search function won't look up a word of fewer than four letters :ph34r:

[JLOGIC]

I'm pretty sure there's nothing wrong with that, as well. Still, I prefer longer answers, at the current stage in my development.

 

Not trying to go around in circles, I agree that long answers are usually preferable (to anyone). I guess I just mean that sometimes people don't want to give a long answer for whatever reason (presumably time and/or interest level in the hand). In those cases I think the question is whether no answer is better than a short one. I don't see much harm in the latter, and I think even a string of answers like "3N" is better than nothing, at least the OP will know most people would bid 3N, which is something. I agree it makes one a worse poster if they use one line answers a lot, but it's on topic and no one has to strive to give the best answer ever all the time, it's not practical.

 

I believe this was already answered in one of my previous posts. A short unsatisfactory (to me) answer reduces the odds of getting a long answer, and when I open topics I admit I care mostly about enlightening myself, rather than others.

 

That is an interesting point, I don't know if it's true. I think you could argue that people posting a short answer could cause a debate to start if others don't agree with it (if I disagree with everyones short answer, I'll always feel compelled to write a novel on why!). It is often true on the internet that the first reply sets the tone though, so you might be right. Sorry if you answered that before I did not see it.

 

Are you asking who they are so you can argue with me the group is accurate? It seems like you agree some amount of "groupthink" is natural, so what is the point of inquiring exactly who I have in mind?

 

True, I'm sure it was mainly curiosity, I shouldn't have asked. I think in general I disagree that there is a group of friends who have each others backs for the sake of having each others backs, but it is tough for me to argue that without specifics. Still, it was a dumb question.

 

I agree it's quite natural for friendships to develop and for friends to have each other's backs. Irrespective, this natural tendency also invokes a natural tendency for some people to feel excluded or ganged-up on. This can be viewed as an unfortunate necessity, or not. I choose the latter.

 

Again, I think the motive is off. Group think in a community, check, we both agree. Gwnn's "Smart people are more likely to agree with each other." Ok not sure if I would word it that way, but also a good point. Having each others backs out of friendship, I don't think that's a motive for people in a bridge discussion, when the non-bridge bitch fights break out then yeah maybe (but still more of the other stuff). I think some of the onus is on the people who feel ganged up on if the BBF community disagrees with their bidding, but others could perhaps be more sensitive.

 

I don't think I've given anyone cause to hate me, but indeed I've often felt excluded.

 

That is too bad (and I mean that sincerely, I find you to be a nice person and good poster even though we sometimes don't agree). From what you said later, some of it is from not understanding/being "in the loop" when you first started posting here. Maybe this goes back to your "is this an unfortunate necessity or not" thing, but to me all communities will have references, lingo, etc. Explaining them all the time would be time consuming and annoying. The way I look at it is when a new person joins a new community, the onus is on them to pick up the stuff. This happens when you become friends with a new group of friends, join a new gym class, whatever. Maybe this is a bad attitude and not actually necessary, but it is so standard in all social situations. I can see why this makes new people feel excluded at first, but to me there is a difference in being new and not understanding stuff, and actually being unwelcome or excluded, because it is not something that is personal.

 

I can see why this might have turned you off (glad you stuck around), but it also seems like it would make the whole place less enjoyable for all non really new members who have become friends here to have no slang or references of past inside forum jokes or whatever. Should I not make some joke to pclayton about kenrexford (both my friends, both I've had huge blow ups with here, btw), in a thread, because others might not understand? I don't think so. (Even me saying pclayton, I did it by accident, as he goes by Phil now, and others might not know who I'm talking about...that might be unwelcoming to new people). Yes, it would probably make me a nicer and more considerate person if I never made any references like that, but I still don't feel like I'm being unwelcoming by doing so (especially for me! Haha...or not).

 

but certainly I've been welcomed more warmly to other forums on the internet

 

Perhaps it's because I was on 4chan early in my life but I've seen much worse welcomes also.

 

I see your points, and I appreciate them, and I do not mean this about you but at the end of the day I still think:

 

-A lot of people who don't like short posts are comparing them to possible longer ones and feel entitled to them (rather than have a legitimate concern about them). It's like "wow, this person gives long answers sometimes, and didn't give me one, my question was good and I deserve one.

 

-When someone joins a community they should not expect there to be no inside jokes, past references, unfamiliar slang, etc to cater to them. There is more onus on them. Of course there is an onus on the community to make new people feel welcome, and perhaps we disagree on how proficient at this the BBF regs are, but I think they are far better than average (myself excluded). Again, there is a problem with thinking about "me, me, me"

 

On that note, I thought there was a glossary of terms here stickied. Maybe not? Reading that should help with some slang/acronyms.

 

-In general, I think people who do not act entitled and do not act in an antisocial manner are included more often. Especially if these people make an effort to play on BBO with the regs, or private message them, or reach out somehow. I'm not saying they have to do this, I just think this is normal in social situations. People are going to give more/better replies to their friends or mentees or people they're rooting for. There is nothing wrong or abnormal about this. Basically, people can increase their chances of feeling welcome by being pro-active.

 

-I disagree that friends are more likely to agree with each other in the bridge threads. I used to make it a point to post when I disagreed with jdonn or han, jdonn thought this was me picking on him but it was more interesting when we disagreed, and the times we agreed (most) I felt like I'd be repeating them by posting.

 

That is not directed at you, just in general. In fact, I have always tried to give you good answers because you seemed cool and also your posts were usually in beginner/int forum. But I am just one person obv.

[JLOGIC]

I tried to look up the old "wtp" debate, but the search function won't look up a word of fewer than four letters :ph34r:

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/30362-one-liner-posts/

 

This is the one I was thinking of. (pro tip if you want to search a 3 letter word, just use google and site:bridgebase.com/forums).

 

Not sure if you even posted back then but at one point I created an account called JLOL and my only content in posts was to quote a post and say LOL. I did not do this in b/i, and almost always in a/e, and it was part of my crusade to limit and/or self police the rampant problem of people who had no clue posting in advanced/expert. It got to the point where many people starting LOLing many things. If you read posts from like 2009 you will see it a lot.

 

It was also pre rep obviously so a lot of posts were "Agree with person X." I think the + votes help a lot with this problem. And wtp or obv were the same as now.

 

Edit, wish I had seen this thread before my previous wall of text...I made basically the same points as 2.5 years ago. Here it is:

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/30362-one-liner-posts/page__view__findpost__p__347328

[Antrax]

I'm sure you could work out a deal wherein you pay Justin per word, rather than his usual hourly rate.

 

Oh wait, you thought you were entitled to long, thoughtful answers to all your questions for free?

I'd like to re-focus the discussion. I don't think I have anything new to contribute to the "wtp or not" discussion. In the past someone (I think Free?) linked me to an old discussion where I saw the prevalent opinions mentioned and discussed. All I said is "here are some cases where I felt excluded". It's quite alright to think I'm alone in this, or that I'm wrong to feel that way. What I don't understand is arguing with my personal experience as a newbie, especially by putting words in my mouth. It did happen, that is how it made me feel, let's work from here.

 

JLOGIC, I'll give you an example: I'm quite active in a puzzle forum, and every couple of months someone wanders in with the "does 0.9999.... equal 1" debate. We usually just use a canned response as in "hi, this has a clear answer and has been discussed several times, here's a selection of proofs, let us know if it's not enough". I don't know if bridge questions are that cut and dried, but the point I'm trying to make is that if someone posted such a thread and got 34 "yes, they're equal" answers, they'd just feel like idiots. Maybe they should feel like idiots, but if you want to encourage them to participate then you need to forgive them even when they're being idiotic. Even when they argue with you despite being much worse players, and even when they do it disrespectfully. Yes it's a pain, but we got some good members thanks to being super patient to people with were being wrong, loudly.

My idea to resolve the tension being allowing members to jest and allowing new members to feel welcomed is to moderate the B/I forums a lot more proactively, assuming new members mostly post in B/I, which may be wrong, since in essence it's another self-rating situation. Maybe they could be renamed "Relaxed Bridge Discussion" and "Main Bridge Discussion" or something. Anyway, one of them has to be the place where people can be idiots without being made fun of, and most posts are legible to first-time posters.

[JLOGIC]

B/I should be exactly that, I am surprised that you feel that it is otherwise (not saying you're wrong, I just thought everyone behaved well there...even I do!).

 

I think you hit upon something nicely, people are gonna get flamed in a/e way more and I think they should since they are not respecting the subforums. It would be like posting in advanced puzzle forum: so... I think .999.... is NOT equal to 1! Of course if it was a brand new poster I would expect them to be told to go to the beginner/int forum in that case rather than trolled.

 

I think we basically agree, if people are making others feel unwelcome in beginner/int that is really wrong. It has always been a no-no according to the rules and I thought it was actively policed by both moderation and the members.

 

There was also a thread a while ago about adding more moderators specifically for that purpose I think actually fwiw.

[gwnn]

I tried to look up the old "wtp" debate, but the search function won't look up a word of fewer than four letters :ph34r:

For future reference, you can use google search. Indeed:

http://www.google.com/search?q=wtp+posts+site:bridgebase.com

 

spits out the thread :)

[JLOGIC]

For future reference, you can use google search. Indeed:

http://www.google.com/search?q=wtp+posts+site:bridgebase.com

 

spits out the thread :)

 

COULDNT YOU HAVE JUST SAID AGREE WITH JLALL?!

 

This is the one I was thinking of. (pro tip if you want to search a 3 letter word, just use google and site:bridgebase.com/forums).