-930 ATB

[Phil]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakj8hk3dkj87cq98&w=sq97543hdaqt32ck5&n=sha7642d54cjt7643&e=st62hqjt985d96ca2&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=2hd2s(Non%20Forcing)3c3sdppp]399|300[/hv]

 

MPs

 

Declarer played very skilfully and made an overtrick. ATB.

 

Have at it, jackals.

[aguahombre]

Which part of South's hand did he not describe with the first double?

[nige1]

IMO: Bad luck = 50%, System = 30%, North 10%, South 10%.

• South might prefer to overcall 2N rather than double 2♥.
• If you don't play Lebensohl or Rubensohl here, then your system is a bit to blame.
• For us Walruses, South's double of 3♠ is reflex but, with hindsight, South might have been wary of his poorly placed ♠.
• Perhaps North should remove because if West has no ♥ (as advertised), then North's hand can contribute little to the defence.

[Free]

South 90% for his 2nd Dbl. 10% bad luck.

[Cyberyeti]

Which part of South's hand did he not describe with the first double?

He described a 4144 12 count, he has 17 including what might well be 3 trump tricks, particularly if declarer needs to ruff anything in dummy, and his partner has made a free bid.

 

Playing lebensohl or something of the sort here is essential, 3♣ should show a decent hand, which it is offensively but not defensively, so I'd probably show it the weak way which might discourage partner from doubling, but I think that decision is close.

 

I'd say not much blame other than system if no Lebensohl.

[hotShot]

I blame North.

 

He's got no defense trick (it's quite sure that West can ruff ♥ if he runs to ♠ ) and he knows that partners values are in front of the stronger opponent.

He's got a 6 card ♣ suit and all smells like a great ♥ / ♠ crossruff play.

[dake50]

This auction screams for a trump lead from partner, even with his void.

Could this be forseen? Yup!

3NT makes some sense instead of South's second double.

[vianu2]

Let's say we are playing Lebenshol so we bid 2NT here? Does it help ? Over 3♠ partner has no clue what is our minor))) Lebenshol should be used without interference.

 

3♣ seems ok to me over 2♠ and of course, S must be able to know that his partner is short ♦ so his ♦ may not work.

So with that funny X he tells that he has 2,3 (let's say 4) defenses which he made!

And how many downs can be there? yeah Partner may have k♣ so what? U set it -1 but u make 3NT.

 

I would not pass with N's hand. If partner has ♣ honours and ♠ honours then he has very little outside and that's too bad. If not, we cannot use the ♣ suit to beat the contract. So my hand is not useful. Of course, 4♣ here with a normal defense get 500 and is not a big deal.

 

Why not simply bid 3NT with the S's hand?

I would X 3♠ with something like akxx/xx/akxx( or kqxx)/axx just because i have too many controls and not a heart stopper.(and not a very good ♣ fit)...and again i will not blame my partner if he run.

So i dunno like to take that X (over 3♠) as penalty so i do blame N for pass and S for bidding that X with such a hand, having 5 controls but only 3 useful.

[Cyberyeti]

Let's say we are playing Lebenshol so we bid 2NT here? Does it help ? Over 3♠ partner has no clue what is our minor))) Lebenshol should be used without interference.

This is why a lot of people me included reverse lebensohl so 2N is weak with clubs or the good hands, and the good hands bid again, so the immediate 3♦ would be weak.

[pooltuna]

Which part of South's hand did he not describe with the first double?

 

 

the fact that he had NT values?

[vianu2]

This is why a lot of people me included reverse lebensohl so 2N is weak with clubs or the good hands, and the good hands bid again, so the immediate 3♦ would be weak.

So let's see if i understand.

2♥-X-2♠-2nt (leb weak with clubs or good hand)

 

3♠-X (automatic now, to show a better hand than a minimal double)-p-? i have weak hand i am going to 4♣ -2. (hope not to be doubled).

or

3♠-pass (if partner has good hand he must bid again? in which case?)-pass-Now?

Hmmm

I think that lebenshol puts me in a big trouble; i am curious how will u bid here.

Edit.

I think that instead of playing so many conventions could be better to just imagine that u play against sane opponents and to judge their reasons too.

How can it work (your leb) in such auction:being V against NV.

1♣-2♥-2NT-5♥ :D

[WGF_Flame]

North 80% bad luck 20%

[semeai]

I'd say South's double is a typical cards double at matchpoints: extra values, decent trumps given the auction. North should perhaps pull (I'm biased by seeing the result) but was also just unlucky.

[Cyberyeti]

So let's see if i understand.

2♥-X-2♠-2nt (leb weak with clubs or good hand)

 

3♠-X (automatic now, to show a better hand than a minimal double)-p-? i have weak hand i am going to 4♣ -2. (hope not to be doubled).

or

3♠-pass (if partner has good hand he must bid again? in which case?)-pass-Now?

Hmmm

I think that lebenshol puts me in a big trouble; i am curious how will u bid here.

Edit.

I think that instead of playing so many conventions could be better to just imagine that u play against sane opponents and to judge their reasons too.

How can it work (your leb) in such auction:being V against NV.

1♣-2♥-2NT-5♥ :D

X by the big hand is "I want to double this for pens if you have the weak hand with clubs".

P is Pass with clubs, don't with anything else. What X is opposite is open to partnership agreement, but can be the "Staymanic with a stop".

 

Lebensohl in this situation has never got me in serious trouble, and is invaluable when opps don't raise, or you have the purely competitive hand with a red suit and partner isn't worrying whether he should raise with more than a minimum.

[xxhong]

South shouldn't double 3S here. They are very likely in a 9 card spade fit, so doubling is too aggressive IMO. 3NT looks like a good bid. 3NT can be good when partner has a good club suit, or fine club suit and a few good cards in H. I don't think north should pull south's penalty double.

[hv=pc=n&s=sakj8hk3dkj87cq98&w=sq97543hdaqt32ck5&n=sha7642d54cjt7643&e=st62hqjt985d96ca2&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=2hd2s(Non%20Forcing)3c3sdppp]399|300[/hv]

 

MPs

 

Declarer played very skilfully and made an overtrick. ATB.

 

Have at it, jackals.

[MrAce]

I find it interesting to see people blaming S. South has a decent hand, AKJx ♠, Kx ♥ behind 1♥ opener and much more. It is quite a view to think that he should just pass in peace here when pd made a free call, just because we know the result. Of course we may pass thinking that opponents may have hands like 6-5 and voids and avoid ever letting them make a dbled contract . We never play a % 45 session when everything goes wrong, but probably never play a % 65 session either with this logic. I will not blame North much either, but i would personally lift it.

 

It is also confusing to me that some decent players here think 2♥ DBL already showed South's hand.

[ahydra]

I'd have bid 2NT at first with S and that might get us to 3NT (or unfortunately the hopeless 5C). So I'm not ruling out bad luck but I'm not convinced the 2nd double (no matter what it meant) or North's pass of said double was the best. If the 2nd double was takeout I think North should bid 5C.

 

ahydra

[vianu2]

I find it interesting to see people blaming S. South has a decent hand, AKJx ♠, Kx ♥ behind 1♥ opener and much more. It is quite a view to think that he should just pass in peace here when pd made a free call, just because we know the result. Of course we may pass thinking that opponents may have hands like 6-5 and voids and avoid ever letting them make a dbled contract . We never play a % 45 session when everything goes wrong, but probably never play a % 65 session either with this logic. I will not blame North much either, but i would personally lift it.

 

It is also confusing to me that some decent players here think 2♥ DBL already showed South's hand.

S has a decent hand and " much more" but it can't be expressed with another X just because of the luck of defenses. If we think our opps are sane then partner cant have too much for his 3cl free bid, as i said. So S must reevaluate his hand and count max 3 defenses. In that case he has a minimal hand already showed in the first round.

Based on the club suit, his hand is much valuable in 3NT .

ps. Wondering, who u want to bid 3NT here: his partner with void spade?

[nigel_k]

North 80% bad luck 20%

I agree with this.

 

South is not showing a hand with lots of spades. He is showing a takeout double with extra values and four good spades. North has a clear pull to 4♣ with six clubs and a spade void. If South cannot double with this hand then you can't ever get them and there are lots of idiots out there, plus the possibility that West may have psyched.

[MrAce]

S has a decent hand and " much more" but it can't be expressed with another X just because of the luck of defenses. If we think our opps are sane then partner cant have too much for his 3cl free bid, as i said. So S must reevaluate his hand and count max 3 defenses. In that case he has a minimal hand already showed in the first round.

Based on the club suit, his hand is much valuable in 3NT .

ps. Wondering, who u want to bid 3NT here: his partner with void spade?

 

 

Exchange your pd's ♥A with dummy's ♣ A or declarer's ♦ A with same hand and we wouldn't even be discussing this topic. I know then we are more likely to make 3 NT.

Can bid 3 NT (and i would probably bid ), i have no objection to that, can DBL too. Even with this what pd holds , change a bit opps hand, u can be in good shape with DBL.

 

But advocating pass by south, thinking he already told his hand is what i disagreed.

[gszes]

South 100%. hard to imagine what s is thinking with 3s X.

W is short in hearts and bid 2s on a suit headed at best

QT. If w had 1 heart surely they would have left 2h x in

rather than gamble on their putrid suit. It is pretty darn

easy for us to imagine W as void in hearts and after 2s gets

raised to 3s E probably has an extra distributional surprise

for NS. The heart K is completely useless in spades but hugely

useful in NT. There is a strong probability W has no hearts

and E having at most 1 side entry makes 3n the standout bid.

 

It is difficult to imagine too many hands where 3n wont have

decent play if w (as expected) is void in hearts.

[Free]

I find it interesting to see people blaming S. South has a decent hand, AKJx ♠, Kx ♥ behind 1♥ opener and much more. It is quite a view to think that he should just pass in peace here when pd made a free call, just because we know the result. Of course we may pass thinking that opponents may have hands like 6-5 and voids and avoid ever letting them make a dbled contract . We never play a % 45 session when everything goes wrong, but probably never play a % 65 session either with this logic. I will not blame North much either, but i would personally lift it.

 

It is also confusing to me that some decent players here think 2♥ DBL already showed South's hand.

Imo South hand isn't worth much extra. Yes he has ♥Kx behind the opener, but what will it do in a ♠ contract? It will just be ruffed. West bid 2♠, clearly indicating he doesn't have any ♥ (perhaps the only exception is if he has 7+♠-1♥, but then East wouldn't support on a doubleton).

His ♣ holding is also quite useless: Qxx opposite a 5 card or longer in partner's hand? How many tricks will that bring to the defense?

South can expect North not to hold any ♠s as well, so he can't lead trumps. Since South doesn't have a clear entry himself, how can he ever draw trumps? Dummy will be able to ruff, except if South somehow manages to gain the lead and draw trumps, and in doing so he gives away a ♠ trick.

His ♦ holding is ok, but again, it requires help from his partner or a favorable split to gain a trick. It's not at all unexpected that West has some ♦s (but it's unlucky that it's AQTxx ofcourse): West should have 6♠ and 0♥, that leaves 7 minor suit cards. It won't be a huge amount of ♣s because NS have 8+♣s together, therefore he'll have some ♦s.

 

I don't see an easy way to 5 tricks for NS from South's point of view. It's clear that South made a typical MP double, but here he needs all sorts of things to go right to get 5 tricks, and the splits we expect are against us. These sort of auctions usually bring an extra surprise, so South should've been careful and wait for another deal to make his MP double imo.

[Phil]

I was South.

 

We actually do play good/bad 2N, but my partner has been in Chile for the last three months for work, so our partnership is rusty. I couldn't rely on his remembering to be honest.

 

My double is a little aggressive, although the comments about that I was bidding my hand twice in this thread are bizarre to me. My original double does not suggest ♠AKJ8, sorry. I also think there is a good chance we are making 3♣, but not necessarily 4, so I felt we had some equity to protect which is why I doubled. Yes its close, and yes they are probably on a 6-3 fit, but dummy will have very limited entries, even though diamonds may be on my left, and this hand will play awkwardly for declarer. The diamond shortness, lack of heart wastage, and club honor are all big surprises.

 

Pard's final pass? This is a very offensive hand, but he has some heart losers to dispose of. He could also be worried that I am a little offshape, like 4=2=5=2, which makes 4♣ unappealing.

 

In the end, I don't think there is a clear error.

[mikeh]

I'm very late to this thread, but here is my two cents worth:

 

1. The first double is automatic. The major suit discrepancies are too much to warrant 2N.

 

2. 3♣ is a little conservative, but since partner will often hold only 3 clubs, and we have a lot of hearts to dispose of, I agree with the call. Btw, I don't play lebensohl here.....I think 2N for the minors is a better treatment...we can't use a responsive double here....double of 2♠ is needed as penalty if only to keep them honest. So to me it is more important that we are able to show one and 2 suiters, with the minors, than that we can distinguish between various strengths. Once the opps bid over the double, we don't have to bid with crap, so part of the justification for lebensohl evaporates anyway.

 

3. Double of 3♠ Seems automatic, and I am astounded at any poster who claims that the 2♠ call shows or even suggests a void in hearts....wow! Sure, we aren't guaranteed to go plus but just wtf else are we supposed to do? We have no more heart stoppers (for 3N) than we had when we properly, imo, chose to double 2♥. Our clubs are about as bad as partner expected for our double, and with so few Aces raising clubs seems wrong. Passing is insane...we are a full K and a bit over a minimum, and opposite partner's free bid, the hand rates to belong to us.....passing conveys exactly the opposite impression.

 

4. The final pass by North is a bit scary. Our hand will be a disappointment on defence, so I think we should bid 4♣, but it's tough to be objective.....this is one of those hands where, at imps, I'd be in the tank for several minutes and end up passing or bidding with no confidence in either choice.

 

 

 

So to the very limited extent that blame exists, it is imo 100% on North....not because N screwed up, but because I see nothing wrong with either of S's actions, and N was the only member of the partneship who had a real choice to make, and he went 'wrong', given the layout.

[xxhong]

Well, from your holding, you actually should strongly suspect that west should hold void in H because he pulls the double with Qxxxxx. I don't think any sane player would pull a red 2H to 2S with Qxxxxx x. Opener's raise should also really show 3 spades. So partner most likely holds a spade void and can only bid 3C. So he must have a rather weak hand with good distributions. With that in mind, the hand really defends badly in 3S double because you don't have a sure entry to draw trumps and the 2H opener is marked with shortness somewhere in minor suits. So it is a rather clear hand that one shouldn't double 3S.

 

I'm very late to this thread, but here is my two cents worth:

 

1. The first double is automatic. The major suit discrepancies are too much to warrant 2N.

 

2. 3♣ is a little conservative, but since partner will often hold only 3 clubs, and we have a lot of hearts to dispose of, I agree with the call. Btw, I don't play lebensohl here.....I think 2N for the minors is a better treatment...we can't use a responsive double here....double of 2♠ is needed as penalty if only to keep them honest. So to me it is more important that we are able to show one and 2 suiters, with the minors, than that we can distinguish between various strengths. Once the opps bid over the double, we don't have to bid with crap, so part of the justification for lebensohl evaporates anyway.

 

3. Double of 3♠ Seems automatic, and I am astounded at any poster who claims that the 2♠ call shows or even suggests a void in hearts....wow! Sure, we aren't guaranteed to go plus but just wtf else are we supposed to do? We have no more heart stoppers (for 3N) than we had when we properly, imo, chose to double 2♥. Our clubs are about as bad as partner expected for our double, and with so few Aces raising clubs seems wrong. Passing is insane...we are a full K and a bit over a minimum, and opposite partner's free bid, the hand rates to belong to us.....passing conveys exactly the opposite impression.

 

4. The final pass by North is a bit scary. Our hand will be a disappointment on defence, so I think we should bid 4♣, but it's tough to be objective.....this is one of those hands where, at imps, I'd be in the tank for several minutes and end up passing or bidding with no confidence in either choice.

 

 

 

So to the very limited extent that blame exists, it is imo 100% on North....not because N screwed up, but because I see nothing wrong with either of S's actions, and N was the only member of the partneship who had a real choice to make, and he went 'wrong', given the layout.