jet999 Posted July 30, 2011 Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 Thanks for your vote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted July 30, 2011 Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 For me, 3NT agrees Spades.And I don't play Gerber.When a major suit is agreed, 4NT is quant if there is an alternative route to RKCB but not otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted July 30, 2011 Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 edited Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted July 30, 2011 Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 I think in essence it depends on what 3NT means for you. If it defines a range of points then there is an argument for it being quantitive, but opener is not likely to have a flat hand, and what he wants to know about will be best given by ace asking. I don't have a meaning for a 3NT response - just an unused potential bid looking for an owner. 6 tricks in a solid minor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted July 30, 2011 Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 Before I vote, what is the meaning of 3NT? The real answer to this question is 4NT is whatever you and your partner agrees to. So I think what we will be discussing is what should 4NT mean. If 3NT is balanced something, with some range of hcp without implications of spade support, btw, itis quantitative for sure (for me and my partners). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted July 30, 2011 Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 How can I answer without knowing what 3NT means?If it shows a balanced hand ("to play") then 4NT is quantitative. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted July 30, 2011 Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 How can I answer without knowing what 3NT means?If it shows a balanced hand ("to play") then 4NT is quantitative.We play it precisely 3343/3334 13-15 so partner knows he's facing exactly 3 spades. Still quantitative ? and does it matter whether you play 4 or 5 card majors here ? I think we'd play 4N quantitative as we play 4 card majors and would cue to agree spades, but I don't think it's so clear if you play 5 card majors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted July 30, 2011 Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 Regardless of what it shows, natural or fit with a balanced hand, i play 4NT quantitative. It doesn't make sense to me to play RKCB since i could do this simply by cueing at 4 level and then bid 4NT. Why would i use 4NT for RKCB here too ? Pd having 3 card or 4 card fit 4333 kinda hands doesnt mean we will ALWAYS have hands where we know if we wanna stay in game or we want to go slam. There are hands in between even when 3NT shows a fit. Lets say we have AQxxx Kx QJx AJx, i would like to bid 4NT as invitation even if pd showed a balanced hand and 3 cards fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexJonson Posted July 30, 2011 Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 RKC. I am not smart enough to progress a quantitive auction here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted July 30, 2011 Report Share Posted July 30, 2011 We play it precisely 3343/3334 13-15 so partner knows he's facing exactly 3 spades. fwiw, I hate this treatment and always wonder why it is printed as standard on the acbl cc's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanoi5 Posted July 31, 2011 Report Share Posted July 31, 2011 I voted Q but if 3NT is support for spades then it's KC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted July 31, 2011 Report Share Posted July 31, 2011 fwiw, I hate this treatment and always wonder why it is printed as standard on the acbl cc's. Huh? What makes you think that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted July 31, 2011 Report Share Posted July 31, 2011 fwiw, I hate this treatment and always wonder why it is printed as standard on the acbl cc's. Huh? What makes you think that?I mean it is printed 3NT ____ to _____ and "everyone" plays it as 13-15 3 card support.I don't know what is the best use for it (1♠:3N void splinter & 1♥ 3N maxi ♠ splinter perhaps :) ) but some balanced, gf range isn't it imho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunnyGo Posted July 31, 2011 Report Share Posted July 31, 2011 I mean it is printed 3NT ____ to _____ and "everyone" plays it as 13-15 3 card support.I don't know what is the best use for it (1♠:3N void splinter & 1♥ 3N maxi ♠ splinter perhaps :) ) but some balanced, gf range isn't it imho. If you play that it is exactly 3 card support with a 4333 hand and GF pts, then it is alertable. In fact the box on the ACBL card that should be marked is the "3nt" special meaning box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdeegan Posted July 31, 2011 Report Share Posted July 31, 2011 :P Wow! Reminds me of the night Jake and I invented the Jacoby 2NT. Jake had been using the 3NT bid as his strong raise in the majors on the grounds that it was an idle bid. I convinced him that playing 5 card majors, 2NT was almost an idle bid (you need the right 2-3-4-4 for it to be the optimal call, but with that holding you can temporize). And, of course, you save a huge chunk of bidding space by using 2NT. The rest is history. Johnny Gerber was a genius for inventing the 4♣ ace asking bid. In its day it was a godsend. Every little old lady and clueless customer in the land knew 4♣ was always Gerber. Anyone with half a brain could engineer an effective slam auction sitting opposite a semi-comatose partner. Things are so much better now. Almost half the responders to this poll (who are no doubt excellent bridge players) seem to think 4NT is some sort of ace asking bid. Of course, it matters not since 3NT is the same idle bid it was half a century ago. Gee! I wonder if there might actually be a useful use (sic) for this idle bid????? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted July 31, 2011 Report Share Posted July 31, 2011 Gee! I wonder if there might actually be a useful use (sic) for this idle bid?????Solid 7 card minor, void support, and nothing outside? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted July 31, 2011 Report Share Posted July 31, 2011 If you play that it is exactly 3 card support with a 4333 hand and GF pts, then it is alertable. In fact the box on the ACBL card that should be marked is the "3nt" special meaning box. Precisely. This is discussed in the Bulletin series on how to fill out the system card. 3NT as a 4333 GF raise with 3 trumps is part of Bergen raises. The black colored 2NT and 3NT lines under major suit (and minor suit, for that matter) raises are for natural bids, without support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdeegan Posted August 1, 2011 Report Share Posted August 1, 2011 Solid 7 card minor, void support, and nothing outside? :P Can't remember the last time that particular problem came up. Keep on trying, though. Idle bids are the Devil's workshop. I am thinking the initiation of a relay sequence. Sorta like the good old JTB responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted August 1, 2011 Report Share Posted August 1, 2011 I knew I was going to vote quantitative even before I saw the auction. The point is valid, though, that it depends on the meaning of 3NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted August 1, 2011 Report Share Posted August 1, 2011 Precisely. This is discussed in the Bulletin series on how to fill out the system card. 3NT as a 4333 GF raise with 3 trumps is part of Bergen raises..I assume this 3NT range is 13-15 ??Thus, 3NT! is a Sp raise. If Opener next bids 4C, 4D, or 4H , those would be Ctrl Cue bids for Sp as trump.... Afterwards, 4NT would be RKC for Sp.( a la 1eyedjack in post # 16 ) . So, the immediate 4NT should be reserved as Quantitative:1S - 3NT!4NT = Quant 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiddity Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Assuming 3NT shows a balanced hand with a tight range (and I guess it should be pretty precise given the amount of space it takes up) then I think it would be better to play 4NT as rkc. Otherwise it becomes troublesome to handle the strong spade hands which just want to keycard. Meanwhile the loss of a quant bid is pretty minor given that responder has already tightly limited his/her hand. edit: I see some suggestions that opener should cuebid on the way to rkc but then it becomes troublesome to show the 2-suiter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmcw Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 If 3NT agrees a balanced ♠ fit, then, 4NT is RKC. If 3NT can be with only 2 ♠, then, 4NT is quantitative. Simple enough and it works, no need to complicate with cue bids in order to "set" trumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 edit: I see some suggestions that opener should cuebid on the way to rkc but then it becomes troublesome to show the 2-suiter.I think the 3NT bid has made it impossible to show a 2-suiter. If the 3NT shows a 3 card fit for the Major, then 4-new suit will always be interpretted as a Ctrl Cue bid; whereas: 1M - 2m! ( 2/1 GF )3m - 3M always shows a 2-suiter. Also, another negative attribute for the 3NT bid is when M = Hearts... now Opener has no room below 4H to cuebid Spades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdeegan Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 :rolleyes: What about using the otherwise almost idle 3NT response as RKC for spades? It keeps the bidding lower and suggests slam. With all this other 13-15 HCP junk you can start with a forcing NT or temporize at the two level in one of your minor suit 4 baggers.1. You can afford to ask for key cards and get out at the four level. No serious worries with a small doubleton side suit holding. You will be just with the field.2. If opener has serious extras, then a 4NT response to 3NT is RKC in spades where five is at worst a safe bailout, six is very, very likely, and seven is in the picture.3. With moderate extras, opener can suggest slam by venturing to the five level with a cue bid after responder signs off at 4♠. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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