stayman question

[sceptic]

the bidding goes, 1nt : 2c : 2H : 3c, opps are not bidding, what is 3c exactly?

[luke warm]

i'd guess 4405 hand that has at least slam aspirations

[Gerben47]

Depends on the rest of your system.

 

Undiscussed I would think this is natural and slam-interest. It must have 4♠ because without a 4-card major responder would not bid Stayman.

 

With a fit in opener's major and a shortness, make an unusual jump in your short suit, 4♦ on luke's example distribution.

[the hog]

Sceptic this depends on agreements - we play it as showing 4S and 5+C invitational.

 

"i'd guess 4405 hand that has at least slam aspirations ".

Jimmy did you misread the initial question? How else would you show

Axxx xxx x KJT9x

2N is a pretty crook bid here.

[inquiry]

I want to play 3!Cs....

 

If I want to force, I bid 2S over 2H, partner bids 2NT, and then I bid a forcing suit.

 

I like this very much... but standard, 3C is forcing, with clubs and spades....

 

ben

[luke warm]

you're right, i did misread it... i still think slam interest, but now with 4 spades and at least 5 clubs... thx ron

[Fluffy]

In natural system it means 5+♣, Game forcing, normally with a 4 card major, but doesn´t have to be ♠, since you can later bid 4♥ to show a slam trial with ♣ suit.

[inquiry]

In natural system it means 5+♣, Game forcing, normally with a 4 card major, but doesn´t have to be ♠, since you can later bid 4♥ to show a slam trial with ♣ suit.

Yes.. fluffy is absoluteyl correct. And this is what I play with many partners... But this might be a good time to ask a follow up question...

 

What does the following 2S bid mean?

 

1NT-2C

2H-2S

 

You used stayman looking for a 4-4 major fit. Partner bid 2H. Does 2S say, sorry partner, I don't have 4H, but I do have 4S.. can we play 2S? If not, please bid 2NT? That works, and at matchpoints might be a good use. I give up the ability to play exactly 2S here, and use 2S as an artificial game force. Opener rebids 2NT.. now responder bids 3C (may later show heart support), etc....

 

What this allows is if this is how to force with clubs, then what does the immediate 3C bid over 2H by opener mean? Well, it is no longer forcing. Invite or signoff.. up to you or your partner. I play it as non-forcing but mild invite (with no invite, I transfer to clubs originally or pass 1NT, with stronger invite, I buck up and rebid 2NT over 2H, we aren't going to five clubs anyway, so where am I inviting to?).

 

Ben

[pclayton]

In standard bidding, 3♣ is GF with typically 4♠'s and at least 5♣'s; looking for a ♣ slam, or trying to avoid a bad 3N.

 

Over strong NT's, we play Goldman. To show a good hand with a minor and a 4 card major, transfer to the minor and bid the OTHER major.

 

Ergo, 1N - 2♣ - 2♥ - 3♣ can be used to show a weak 5-4 or even 6-4; Qxxx, xx, x, Qxxxxx.

[xx1943]

the bidding goes, 1nt : 2c : 2H : 3c, opps are not bidding, what is 3c exactly?

Hi

You have to discuss with your pd the different meaning of all the sequences including ♣.

What is strong (GF) what is invite to game, what is signoff, what is slam-invite.

Which distribution shows responder?

 

1NT - 3♣

1NT -2♠ with 2NT showing ♣ honour

1NT - 2♣ - 2 any - 3 ♣

1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ - 3♣

 

I saw many players, who said SAYC or 2/1 give the above very different meaning. Imo: it is necessary, to discuss this with pd.

 

Cheers

 

Al

[paulg]

the bidding goes, 1nt :  2c :  2H :  3c, opps are not bidding, what is 3c exactly?

Standard SAYC 3♣ is natural showing slam interest.

 

In old fashioned Acol it is weak and sign off.

 

In your system, and also 2/1, the answer is dependent on the hands you put through the 2♠ transfer to clubs. You probably do not need another bid showing slam interest in clubs, so you can play this as sign off or invitational.

 

Personally I play it as sign off, implying 4-card spades but any method is playable as long as you agree.

[Fluffy]

2♠ after 2♥ can have different meanings in different partnerships, I used to play 4♠+5 in a minor very weak, nowadays I play a higly artificial relay method to show 5431 with a long minor.

[helene_t]

If you play 2♠ as transfer for clubs, this could be non-forcing with 5+ clubs and 4 spades, since stronger hands with the same shape could be bid via transfers, and stronger one-suiters via a direct 3♣ response. This is standard in the Netherlands, even in the beginners/intermediate group.

In the advanced/experet groups my answer would have been that 3♣ is a relay ("minor suit asking"), saying nothing about clubs.

In SAYC, an invitational hand with clubs bid 3♣ over 1NT. 3♣ via Stayman is natural and forcing. You can't bid an invitational (or weak) two-suiter in that system. (This is one of the few exceptions confirming the rule that Standard American is better than Biedermeijer :P ).