4144 18 points

[aguahombre]

Bidding 1♠ made me ill but I like 2♠ less, if I get this hand again I will try 2N.

There are good pills for nausea on the market. Keep the 1S rebid, but not the partner.

[han]

I didn't much like Norths pass either but while my partner is away having fun in Toronto, I'm playing with pickups and the only bids I have any influence on are my own. Bidding 1♠ made me ill but I like 2♠ less, if I get this hand again I will try 2N.

 

Why do you dislike 2S, and why do you prefer 1D over 1C?

[nigel_k]

I prefer the 1♣ opening as well as partner will misevaluate with short diamonds if you open 1♦, which is kind of what happened. There are lots of 4-4 minor hands where 1♦ has inherent advantages, but with this type you can just choose the better minor or the one which will help partner evaluate better. For example, if the diamonds were KJT9 instead of AJT9, a 1♦ opening would be much more attractive because you want partner to dislike a stiff diamond and like the ♦Q.

 

2NT is ok but I wouldn't do it because the hand is borderline in terms of strength and my clubs are good so I'll be happy if partner passes 1♣. And there isn't really a rebid problem because I can rebid 2♠.

 

I don't understand the complaints about North's pass of 1♠. North took a risk responding on a marginal hand and has succeeded in improving the contract. Why would he want to keep on bidding, and if he does then his next bid is going to have an enormously wide range and you will get too high very often.

[gordontd]

North took a risk responding on a marginal hand

??? He has two aces!

[jillybean]

Why do you dislike 2S, and why do you prefer 1D over 1C?

 

I don't like 2♠ because it misrepresents my shape. Having said that I realise that if I'm not going

to open 2N then I would be much better to open 1♣ and rebid 2♠ than what I did here.

[daveharty]

I don't like 2♠ because it misrepresents my shape. Having said that I realise that if I'm not going

to open 2N then I would be much better to open 1♣ and rebid 2♠ than what I did here.

It's true that partner's working assumption will be that you are 5-4, but that's not a huge misrepresentation when your five card suit is "only" AKQx.

[Cyberyeti]

My problem with opening 1♣ is what do you do when partner responds 1♦ ? No sensible forcing diamond raise, and if you bid spades, partner is likely to assume you have 3 diamonds not 4 when you then bid diamonds.

[MrAce]

My problem with opening 1♣ is what do you do when partner responds 1♦ ? No sensible forcing diamond raise, and if you bid spades, partner is likely to assume you have 3 diamonds not 4 when you then bid diamonds.

 

1♣--1♦

3♥

 

Anyway

It has been a very useful debate so far for B/I players.

 

-They learnt to open 2 NT with 4441 hands (i am guilty as charged)

-They learnt to bid 1♠ instead of a jump shift with 20 hcps.

-They learnt to open 1♣ from 4-4 minors.

 

With this speed of education, i would not be surprised to see B/I players of BBO forums playing in BB very soon. :D

[nigel_k]

??? He has two aces!

Sorry for some reason I thought the hearts were 10xxxx

[the hog]

I agree with all of those that said 1D is the least attractive opening bid. It should either be 2NT (which would also be my choice) or 1C, which is clearly better than 1D. The plan must be to rebid 2S over 1H. This suggests a 5-card minor, and the clubs are much better than the diamonds. Opening 1C also has the advantage that partner needs far less to bid 1D over 1C than to bid 2C over 1D.

 

Rebidding 1S strikes me as odd, even if you play this as forcing. If 1S is non-forcing then passing with a 3514 shape is an option, but the north hand is too strong.

 

It is not odd if you play 2S as a mini splinter which many do!

[MrAce]

It is not odd if you play 2S as a mini splinter which many do!

 

 

Many ? :blink:

 

If thats true, its definetely a shock to me.

[the hog]

Many ? :blink:

 

If thats true, its definetely a shock to me.

 

Well perhaps I should have said many in my part of the world. They are very common here, even sequences like 1D 1H 3C for example.

[Cyberyeti]

My problem with opening 1♣ is what do you do when partner responds 1♦ ? No sensible forcing diamond raise, and if you bid spades, partner is likely to assume you have 3 diamonds not 4 when you then bid diamonds.

 

1♣--1♦

3♥

This causes its own problems particularly with a stiff K♥ in getting to 3N when it's right with partner having a dubious heart stop of his own (think xxx,Qxx,KQxxx,xx, even more so when your spades are QJxx rather than Kxxx).

[Zelandakh]

I agree with all of those that said 1D is the least attractive opening bid. It should either be 2NT (which would also be my choice) or 1C, which is clearly better than 1D. The plan must be to rebid 2S over 1H.

Han, I found this passage interesting and I would kindly ask for a little clarification. The hand given is 20 hcp but clearly it is borderline for 2NT; my initial evaluation of it was as a good 19. So I am wondering what you have against the sequence 1C - 1H - 2NT. Is it because lying about the club length is the lesser evil or just that you feel the hand is too strong, or something else? And just a secondary thing, I find with your posts that you tell what you would do but very often I would like to hear more from you about the reasoning. You are obviously one of the top posters here and I genuinely think if you gave some details of your thought processes more often it would be a great opportunity for the majority of posters here, myself included, to improve. I hope you do not take offence at this suggestion, none is intended.

[MrAce]

This causes its own problems particularly with a stiff K♥ in getting to 3N when it's right with partner having a dubious heart stop of his own (think xxx,Qxx,KQxxx,xx, even more so when your spades are QJxx rather than Kxxx).

 

And why do u think i opened 2 NT at the first place ? But if i am forced to open 1♣ and pd bids 1♦, this is your bid.

[Cyberyeti]

And why do u think i opened 2 NT at the first place ? But if i am forced to open 1♣ and pd bids 1♦, this is your bid.

Our main disagreement is basically that you think it's worth the full 20, I don't with the stiff K so have to open 1m.

 

After going astray several times opening these 1♣ we switched to 1♦ and it's been much better since.

[MrAce]

Our main disagreement is basically that you think it's worth the full 20, I don't with the stiff K so have to open 1m.

 

No i dont think it worths 20 hcp, i think this hand worths more than 20 hcp, i am very surprised to see someone who think it worths less than 20 hcp. You made me curious and i checked the credible sources to value this hand

 

Of course you entitled to disagree, but here what they say;

 

KNR = 20.70

 

ZAR= 37 (almost 21)

 

Kleinman = bad 21

 

:)

 

You are too busy to dump values of a stiff K and ignore the fact that this hand also has AKQx and AJT9 suits ;)

[nigel_k]

No i dont think it worths 20 hcp, i think this hand worths more than 20 hcp, i am very surprised to see someone who think it worths less than 20 hcp. You made me curious and i checked the credible sources to value this hand

 

Of course you entitled to disagree, but here what they say;

 

KNR = 20.70

 

ZAR= 37 (almost 21)

 

Kleinman = bad 21

 

:)

 

You are too busy to dump values of a stiff K and ignore the fact that this hand also has AKQx and AJT9 suits ;)

KNR is generally good but overvalues 4441 shapes. If you take the given hand and make some changes you can get KQ75 2 AJ92 AK43 = 19.25.

[MrAce]

KNR is generally good but overvalues 4441 shapes. If you take the given hand and make some changes you can get KQ75 2 AJ92 AK43 = 19.25.

 

So u want me to think KnR overvalues,Ok, how about zar, how about Kleinman ?

 

Perhaps you guys should ask yourselves if you undervalue stiff honors, and undervalue by a lot ! :)

[Cyberyeti]

No i dont think it worths 20 hcp, i think this hand worths more than 20 hcp, i am very surprised to see someone who think it worths less than 20 hcp. You made me curious and i checked the credible sources to value this hand

 

Of course you entitled to disagree, but here what they say;

 

KNR = 20.70

 

ZAR= 37 (almost 21)

 

Kleinman = bad 21

 

:)

 

You are too busy to dump values of a stiff K and ignore the fact that this hand also has AKQx and AJT9 suits ;)

There's a good reason I said that, as I posted above, the minor suit cards are nice. If you're going to make 3N, how many flat 5 counts give you a prayer ? The issue is the entry problems a stiff K give you opposite a weak hand. Unless partner has the J♣, you're very unlikely to have the entries to lead up towards the diamonds twice (if partner has no ♦ honour)and have a heart stop. Give partner say xxx, AQxx, xxxx, xx, plenty to raise to 3N, but it's horrible on the likely heart lead.

 

If partner has 4 spades, I may well have done the wrong thing, but for 3N, I think partner will need a 7 count most of the time, particularly if he doesn't have the ♣J which he'll only have about 1/4-1/3 of the time if he has 5-7. In a weaker hand, where if we're in 3N, partner will have more cards, the stiff K problem is a lot less so AJ109 twice and a stiff K is worth more than 13, but the bigger the hand (and hence the less partner will have) the bigger the problem gets.

 

I'd be very interested to see some simulations with/without 4 spades, and see the average point count required from partner to make 3N/4♠. You'd need to adjust slightly for unerringly finessing Kx(x)(x) ♦ the right way, but then the opps will always play the heart suit to best advantage so that may be a wash.

 

If partner has ♥ Jxxxxx, you may well also get to the wrong game if you open 2N.

[MrAce]

There's a good reason I said that, as I posted above, the minor suit cards are nice. If you're going to make 3N, how many flat 5 counts give you a prayer ? The issue is the entry problems a stiff K give you opposite a weak hand. Unless partner has the J♣, you're very unlikely to have the entries to lead up towards the diamonds twice (if partner has no ♦ honour)and have a heart stop. Give partner say xxx, AQxx, xxxx, xx, plenty to raise to 3N, but it's horrible on the likely heart lead.

 

If partner has 4 spades, I may well have done the wrong thing, but for 3N, I think partner will need a 7 count most of the time, particularly if he doesn't have the ♣J which he'll only have about 1/4-1/3 of the time if he has 5-7. In a weaker hand, where if we're in 3N, partner will have more cards, the stiff K problem is a lot less so AJ109 twice and a stiff K is worth more than 13, but the bigger the hand (and hence the less partner will have) the bigger the problem gets.

 

Sorry, but all this you wrote + 1$ = cup of coffee for me. The outcome of the contract we land has VERY LITTLE to do with this pre-auction hand analysis.

 

The more i read what u just wrote, the more i am laughing to be honest..."if pd has 4♠...if pd doesn't have the ♣J which he will have 1/4 1/3 of the time...entry problems. Jesus ! I would not care less if u open 1♣ or 1♦ or if ur pd has entries or ♣J or 4♠.

 

I can use everything u wrote negative vs a crystal clear 2 NT that you would happily open without stiff honor.

 

You said you disagree with me about the full strength of hand, i brought you 3 different objective results from 3 different sources. You dont wanna take it and write a long book about what this hand should open and why, thats fine, i just don't find it interesting to be honest.

[Cyberyeti]

Sorry, but all this you wrote + 1$ = cup of coffee for me. The outcome of the contract we land has VERY LITTLE to do with this pre-auction hand analysis.

 

The more i read what u just wrote, the more i am laughing to be honest..."if pd has 4♠...if pd doesn't have the ♣J which he will have 1/4 1/3 of the time...entry problems. Jesus ! I would not care less if u open 1♣ or 1♦ or if ur pd has entries or ♣J or 4♠.

 

I can use everything u wrote negative vs a crystal clear 2 NT that you would happily open without stiff honor.

 

You said you disagree with me about the full strength of hand, i brought you 3 different objective results from 3 different sources. You dont wanna take it and write a long book about what this hand should open and why, thats fine, i just don't find it interesting to be honest.

You brought a load of "objective results" from soures that have nothing to do with real bridge that I don't have any confidence in whatsoever. I care about results at the table. I'm pretty sure that a simulation will show that opposite a flat 5 count 3N is way odds against, and probably marginally odds against opposite a flat 6 count, but I have no way of running the simulations. If game is odds against opposite a 6 count and odds on opposite a 7 count, I'd say it's "worth" about 18.5, and that's my estimation.

 

I'd be very happy to be proved wrong by simulations as I'd actually learn something useful. I would add that partner and I respond on pretty much every 5 count and sometimes a bit less when short in the suit opened, so I will not miss 4♠ if partner has 4 of them and a 5 count.

 

If partner has a bit more and is looking at a slam, I have plenty of ways of catching up later (in the method I play, I can rebid 1♠ over 1♥ quite happily and there's lots of space), but most of the time this hand is a partscore/3N/4♠ hand.

 

You will also get into some truly laughable 3N contracts via 2N-3N or 2N-3♣-3♦-3N like say opposite Axx, xx, xxxxx, Jxx, 7 tricks, 8 on a heart lead away from the ace, 5♦ on one trump honour onside and not 4-0.

[MrAce]

You will also get into some truly laughable 3N contracts via 2N-3N or 2N-3♣-3♦-3N like say opposite Axx, xx, xxxxx, Jxx, 7 tricks, 8 on a heart lead away from the ace, 5♦ on one trump honour onside and not 4-0.

 

You brought a load of "objective results" from soures that have nothing to do with real bridge that I don't have any confidence in whatsoever. I care about results at the table.

 

 

Is this how you care about "At the table... real bridge" whatever that means

 

What do u open Kxx Kx AJT9 AKQx ? 2 NT correct ? And can u please tell me how would you avoid ending up in funny 3 NT when pd has Axx xx xxxxx Jxx ? Actually lets do this, with the OP hand, how would you find 5♦ ? Lets say u opened 1♦ and pd bid 3♦ will u bid 5♦? And what if pd has xxx Ax xxxxx Jxx ? It will be a laughable 5♦ when 3 NT is on perhaps ? As you see i can send back everything u write for this 4441 2 NT opener, to the 4432 2NT u happily open. In some cases i may even make it worse where u open happily 2 NT with a xx in a suit, where a stiff K could be better.

 

Anyway i forgot we are not in A/E and edited my post. Open what u want to open m8.

[Cyberyeti]

We have;

 

A-2NT openers

B-1♦ openers (divided into subgroups)

B1-1♦ followed by 3♣

B2-1♦ followed by 2♠

B3-1♦ followed by 2 NT

B4-1♦ followed by 3 NT

B5-1♦ followed by 1 ♠

C-1♣ openers (which will also be divided depending on response style, such as what their pd bids with 4♥+5♦)

etc etc

 

As you see, opening 1 minor does not have 1 happy path that everyone agrees with. Good luck with simulation and applying all this to the hands manually. Of course simulation will always know to start with ♥A lead too knowing that i have stiff K :D

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is this how you care about "At the table... real bridge" whatever that means :D ...Watch now what happens to hands created for forum use at the table. (or vice versa)

 

What do u open Kxx Kx AJT9 AKQx ? 2 NT correct ? And can u please tell me how would you avoid ending up in funny 3 NT when pd has Axx xx xxxxx Jxx ? Actually lets do this, how would you find 5♦ ? Lets say u opened 1♦ and pd bid 3♦ will u bid 5♦? And what if pd has xxx Ax xxxxx Jxx ? It will be a laughable 5♦ when 3 NT is on perhaps ? ;) As you see i can send back everything u write for this 4441 2 NT opener, to the 4432 2NT u happily open. In some cases i may even make it worse where u open happily 2 NT with a xx in a suit, where a stiff K could be better :)

On the modified 2N opener you post, 5♦ ain't great either (38% ?), you aren't making if you have 2 diamond losers or the A♥ is offside so nothing like as big a loss.

 

And I avoid 3N easily with the original hand 1♦-2N(5+♦ 5-8)-3♣-3♦(flat broke)-3♠(stop)-4♦-5♦, on the case with ♥Ax partner bids 3N instead of 4♦ and I'll happily pass.

[helene_t]

wow it wouldn't occur to me to open 2NT. While the good club suit and the ten of diamonds somewhat compensates for the stiff king, making it evaluate as (at least almost) 20 count, I need a decent 20 count to open 2NT. I am used to playing sound responses (unless we have some gadgets after a 1♣ opening we don't respond on modest 5-counts) and a 2NT rebid is forcing. Playing standard methods where a 2NT rebid isn't forcing I can see that it is probably best to open 2NT on modest 20 counts, especially if one upgrades balanced hands frequently so that a 2NT rebid becomes 17+ - 19.

 

But even so, I still prefer 1♣ followed by 2♠ with this hand.