Wasted values?

[gnasher]

Im not sure I see how its going to help ? IMO In the end you will just have a bigger guess to make.

On the actual hand, it would have gone

1

♦

-(2

♥

)-3

♥

3NT-4

♣

4

♥

-4

♠

and opener might take control with 4NT, or he might bid 5♣ after which responder would bid slam.

 

The point is that 3♥ allows room for opener to show a lack of enthusiasm, and then responder to say "I'm still interested". The 4♥ bid in our actual auction left opener guessing whether his hand was good enough to justify a cue-bid.

 

Also im curious how come 3H show shortness, I would bid 3H with 3253,3244 shapes rather than makig a neg X or a 3C response.

We play transfers:

2NT = clubs

3

♣

= diamonds, competitive or game-forcing

3

♦

= diamonds, invitational

3

♥

= splinter

[aguahombre]

We play transfers:

2NT = clubs

3

♣

= diamonds, competitive or game-forcing

3

♦

= diamonds, invitational

3

♥

= splinter

Just a thought: maybe it would be better to incorporate 2 ways of showing four spades (the neg double which might be left in, and another which cannot), perhaps at the expense of 2 ways of showing heart shortness (singleton vs. void). The alternate way would imply extreme heart shortness by inference, anyway.

 

 

Or maybe not :rolleyes:

[Fluffy]

even if that was true you don't want to have specific agreements for each uncommon sequence

[nige1]

Partner had Axx - KQ10xxx KQJx. I signed off in 5♦, but he bid 6♦ anyway, on the grounds that I was likely to have an ace. (We've subsequently agreed that if he thought he was worth a slam-drive he should have followed a different route - he could have bid 3♥ showing shortage, followed by 4♣ to initiate cue-bidding.)

As usual it's just judgement and luck. Although gnasher's 5♦ works opposite partner's actual hand, if partner has a suitable weaker hand such as ...

♠ Axx ♥- ♦ KQxxxx ♣ Qxxx, then a 5♣ cue might be needed to stir him into action..

[jallerton]

Just a thought: maybe it would be better to incorporate 2 ways of showing four spades (the neg double which might be left in, and another which cannot), perhaps at the expense of 2 ways of showing heart shortness (singleton vs. void). The alternate way would imply extreme heart shortness by inference, anyway.

 

Or maybe not :rolleyes:

 

"maybe not" is correct.

 

There is not much room available in this sequence, so you if use an extra bid for something, you have to say which other bid you are giving up.

 

If partner has 4 spades with "extreme shortness" in hearts then he will usually either be able to raise diamonds or will have a sufficiently long club suit to treat the hand as a single suiter in clubs.

[MrAce]

Just a thought: maybe it would be better to incorporate 2 ways of showing four spades (the neg double which might be left in, and another which cannot), perhaps at the expense of 2 ways of showing heart shortness (singleton vs. void). The alternate way would imply extreme heart shortness by inference, anyway.

 

 

Or maybe not :rolleyes:

 

He can transfer to a suit and then bid ♠ with 4 card ♠ hands that he doesnt want the DBL to be converted, no ? Because a hand that doesn't want a conversion with only 4♠, will always have a huge side suit or a 3 suiter. And he doesn't have to sacrificie on 2 ways of showing ♥ shortness. Unless i am missing something.

[aguahombre]

No, you are not missing something. His transfer scheme could handle that and leave no doubt that the jump of 4H, in addition to showing a void denies 4S and has more than 4D.

[Tataie]

Close but 5♦ for me..

1. bad trumps ..6th is a +

2. too much on ♥ still AK is a +

3. Nothing on ♠ => Horrible

4. 2kc = neutral

[jogs]

In style do you cue bid after 4♥ with a minimum, or does it show extras ? And what's your cue bidding style ?

 

5♣ has the virtue of denying a spade control (and I'm much happier doing this if playing a 1sts and 2nds cueing style so I'm denying the K too.)

 

Partner can be as good as QJ10x, -, AKQxx, KQJx and you may not be able to make 5 with the spade ruff let alone 6, and need to play in no trumps.

 

I think I'd probably bid 5♣ as blackwood doesn't tell me what I need to know.

 

For the reasons given by you, bid just 5♦. If pard has the ♠A and ace king of diamonds, he still needs tricks to make 12 tricks in diamonds. With that much he may find a call over 5♦.

[aguahombre]

Following the thread a little more closely, we find that he doesn't need even the AK of diamonds, and doesn't need any club spots. AXX - KQXXX XXXX was plenty.

[cloa513]

Following the thread a little more closely, we find that he doesn't need even the AK of diamonds, and doesn't need any club spots. AXX - KQXXX XXXX was plenty.

That's the sort of hand to cue so high anyway. Any stronger or less distributional and he should cue lower.

[cherdano]

In particular, I don't think we can infer that he has fewer than four spades. If he were 4045 or 4054, there would be no benefit to playing in spades, and it would risk a bad trump break or a diamond ruff. A negative double might lead to a stupid result defending 2♥x, and it might be hard for him to show his diamond support later.

Just to pick out the small detail where I disagree a bit with Andy: with a heart void, I don't think partner should be worried about defending 2♥X all that much - most of the time, his LHO (our RHO) is going to raise anyway with his 3+card support. (Still I agree that he might choose to bid 4♥ with 4054 anyway.)

[JLOGIC]

Yeah this is tough, first instinct was 4S obv, but I really would want a slam force. If partner bids 5C and I bid 6D we could easily be off 2 keycards which seems dumb. Maybe if he just bids 5C I'm supposed to bid 5D since he didnt have enough to bid 4N keycard? Also if he bids 5C and RHO doesn't double, he might lead a spade for that reason.

 

Also if I bid 4S and partner bids 5D I have to bid 6 since he doesn't have club values, and if LHO is smart they will lead a spade on that auction instantly...but most LHOs aren't smart so thats ok, more of a problem is that we still just might not have enough.

 

My other option is to just keycard, I still might get a club lead and at least then I won't be in slam off too many keycards. All in all I like 4S though, maybe depending on opps. I will sign off over 5C and drive over 5D and hope partner just bids 4N in reality.

[JLOGIC]

Now I have read the thread, I see people are suggesting signing off, that seems really conservative to me but I'll think about it some more.

[gszes]

im going with 4n

 

If p has a hand like xxx void AKQxx KQJxx we are too high

already anyway so getting to 6d -2 probably not much worse

than 5d down 1

 

if p shows 0 or 3 I am going to bid 7d since it is either a 4 5 or 7 hand

since it is extremely unlikely p has opted to avoid showing a 4 card spade

suit headed by the A.

 

If p has 2 it is my guess that 6 dia is best. Even if p has xxx void AKQxx KQJxx

it will take a spade lead to beat it and 5d is too high already.

 

If p has one 5d is it and hope we not too high. This would be much scarier if

our suit was clubs:))