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[gnasher]

Fourth, while there is a case that we should all "play against the best possible competition" the fact is that a great many of the best male players participated in youth events and masterpoint-limited events during the early stages of their careers. This doesn't seem to have been a disaster for them; if anything it helped them experience playing in the late rounds of a championship (even if not an open championship) and meet other up-and-coming players who are in some ways similar to themselves with whom they have formed long-term friendships and partnerships. It also helped them advertise themselves to the bridge community (by winning the youth events) and obtain sponsors and coaching and better partners. The ladies events have much the same effects.

I don't think it helps to play in an event where you're hoplessly outclassed, but it is beneficial to play against people who are better than you. If you are one of the best players in a particular category, and you play only against other players in that category, you won't be challenged and it will be harder for you to improve. How many people become top-class players by playing at their local golf club?

[qwery_hi]

51% of the ACBL members are female and what is the percentage of females in the open event of a national championship?

Obviously the ACBL has to promote it's own events to the members.

 

What is the percentage of African Americans in the open event? Of American Indians? Of various other minority groups? At least the low percentage of women is partly due to a women's only event - wtf excuse does the ACBL have for the ridiculous under representation of these minority groups?

[qwery_hi]

Agree, although just a couple of years ago Djokovic was hopelessly outclassed by Nadal and Federer. Look where he is now.

 

I don't think it helps to play in an event where you're hoplessly outclassed, but it is beneficial to play against people who are better than you. If you are one of the best players in a particular category, and you play only against other players in that category, you won't be challenged and it will be harder for you to improve. How many people become top-class players by playing at their local golf club?

[Zelandakh]

So simply by looking at the result history of national open events:

- what was the best result an all female team reached and

- what was the best result a team with a female pair reached.

 

It is perhaps interesting to mention here that in the 30s and 40s Josephine Culbertson was widely regarded as one of the top players in the world. This was before the era of women's-only events so she played mostly with men. By specifying in your question "a female pair" you are actually highlighting one of the problems with the current arrangement.

[kenberg]

I'm 72. I guess I have played in Senior events a couple of times when I was asked, but it's not my cup of tea. At home, unlike some my age, I am pleased that there are families with kids living nearby. Others feel differently, and fine, let them.

 

Having the women's pairs and the open pairs is obviously asymmetrical. I don't plan to put on a dress and try to crash it. I just don't care. I would not want the job of trying to justify this, but I am fine with ignoring it.

[hotShot]

51% of the ACBL members are female and what is the percentage of females in the open event of a national championship?

Obviously the ACBL has to promote it's own events to the members.

What is the percentage of African Americans in the open event? Of American Indians? Of various other minority groups? At least the low percentage of women is partly due to a women's only event - wtf excuse does the ACBL have for the ridiculous under representation of these minority groups?

 

Didn't you realize that women are the majority group (51%). Rules for minorities don't apply to the majority.

I don't know the numbers, but I'm sure that seniors are also a majority group.

 

Juniors are a minority in the ACBL, if you want to talk about them fine.

[sfi]

The following is ACBL specific.

 

Jill Blanchard sued the ACBL claiming that the existence of events limited to men only was discriminatory.

The ACBL eliminated said event.

 

To my knowledge, no males have sued the ACBL arguing that the existence of events limited to women only was discriminatory.

Anyone who wants to should feel free to do so.

 

My understanding is that the essence of the suit was somewhat different. At one point in a nationals tournament the two major events were Mens Pairs and Womens Pairs. This meant that Blanchard and her (male) partner had no reasonable choice of events to play in. Their claim was that this situation was discriminatory, and led to Open/Women events.

 

It did not immediately lead to the abolition of mens events - I played in a mens pairs event at a regional about two years after the suit. Don't remember what else was on at the time though.

[hotShot]

It is perhaps interesting to mention here that in the 30s and 40s Josephine Culbertson was widely regarded as one of the top players in the world. This was before the era of women's-only events so she played mostly with men. By specifying in your question "a female pair" you are actually highlighting one of the problems with the current arrangement.

 

If it help to beautify the numbers include teams with a female player. But I expect that won't help much.

[billw55]

Further, it is the ladies playing in these events that encourage their existence. If a very high percentage of women thought this way and refused to play in them, the ladies events would go away.

The most relevant comment in this thread. It is women who want these events. ACBL is a business; they provide a service that is in demand. End of story.

[ArtK78]

There is no such a thing where it says "Russian female chess team" or "American female poker team" correct me if i am wrong. I dont remember any female WSOP either.

 

If you meant to say that you do not remember any female WSOP event, then your memory is faulty.

 

There is a ladies event at the WSOP. Interestingly enough, due to Nevada law which prevents restrictions on who may enter an event based on categories such as gender, there is no legal impediment to a man entering the ladies event, and several men did enter the event this year (no well known players, and none reached the final table - one did cash, however). The entry of men in the ladies event always creates discussion, and it is generally regarded as being in poor taste. The existence of the ladies event usually generates less discussion.

 

Jennifer Tilly won the Ladies event at the WSOP on June 27, 2005.

[MrAce]

If you meant to say that you do not remember any female WSOP event, then your memory is faulty.

 

There is a ladies event at the WSOP....

 

 

Yes, true, i stand corrected on this.

[qwery_hi]

There is no such a thing where it says "Russian female chess team" or "American female poker team" correct me if i am wrong. I dont remember any female WSOP either.

 

Here is the russian womens team for the chess olympiad -

 

http://www.ugra-chess.com/players.php?teamid=89&tmnt=2

[Finch]

Further, it is the ladies playing in these events that encourage their existence. If a very high percentage of women thought this way and refused to play in them, the ladies events would go away. It's also interesting that it always seems to be men who make this complaint. How many women have even posted in this thread?

 

I'll add to the number. Maybe I shouldn't, because I don't play women's bridge. Overall my attitude is almost exactly the same as gnasher's: I'm not interested because I don't see the point but if other people want to then why should I stop them?

 

I think there are two completely different arguments being presented. On the 'promotion' side, the idea that more women will be encouraged to play if there are women only events. I didn't use to believe that, but I've seen some evidence that nervous female players think an all-female event is more encouraging, less unpleasant and are more likely to play. On that basis I agree we should also have events for any other category of people who for whatever reason are frightened or discouraged from playing in open events - whether because they are non-expert, students, protestant, gay, transsexual, under 5 ft tall, obese, one-armed, have their birthday on the 29th February or whatever. We want more people to get hooked and then progress to the open game.

 

The other discussion is why it's a good idea to have international women's events such as the Venice Cup. Really I can't see the point of this.

 

It's interesting to see that the women-only events in the EBU are dying much faster than anything else. The women's teams nearly expired completely, and the women's pairs has (I think). If you look at the people who play in the trials for the Lady Milne (the intra-Great-Britain event) the best English players either don't play at all, or play in a pro-client pair. The only time you actually see some of the best women playing together are in the EBL/WBF events, when the teams are selected without trials - and even then some of the best women players in the country stick to open events.

 

 

 

 

p.s. We can discuss mixed tournaments (which I do play in sometimes) as well, if you like.

[peachy]

I support all events to be for players regardless of their gender. I think that the separate women's events are a relic from the past. The Wagar entries this year are lower than ever (not sure of "ever" but lower than before) so that seems to indicate majority of top level women spread out to open or seniors, in ACBL anyway. There is no separate event for women in, for example ACBL, regional level tournaments, only at a level where Championships are awarded in the national organizations or the WBF. Does that tell us something?

[campboy]

(1) They are sexist because of an unstated implication that women are inherently worse at bridge.

 

So many other games/sports have these events that this claim seems a bit dubious.

On the contrary, some of the other games you consider make it clearer that they carry this implication. In chess the rank of Woman Grandmaster -- in rating terms -- is below International Master, never mind Grandmaster. There are plenty of other reasons for women-only events, but why does WGM need to exist?

[billw55]

...

 

It's interesting to see that the women-only events in the EBU are dying much faster than anything else. The women's teams nearly expired completely, and the women's pairs has (I think). If you look at the people who play in the trials for the Lady Milne (the intra-Great-Britain event) the best English players either don't play at all, or play in a pro-client pair. The only time you actually see some of the best women playing together are in the EBL/WBF events, when the teams are selected without trials - and even then some of the best women players in the country stick to open events.

 

...

This may go a long way to explaining the demand for women's events.