Polish club

[nikos59]

Asks doofik:

 

In any system, pick one, how do you bid a hand where you hold 5 clubs and 4 diamonds, and for the sake of argument, have 2-2 in majors and hold a total of 13 pts?

 

 

Sorry, but in French standard you simply bid 1C with the hand you

mentioned. Which I find much more sane, unless you like

playing in a 4-2 fit. In fact, I so much abhor opening 1D with

this hand that if I were director in the above case I might give

reason to Dragan simply because I cannot stand the 1D opener :lol:

 

That said, I do know that many players (perhaps a majority??)

are delusional enough to open 1D and then rebid 2C with 4-5

in the minors, so it is obvious that one should not alert.

 

nikos

[Dragan]

To Ron,

 

Again Ron your antypathy to me do not allow you to read last latter. If you carefully read, you should notice : I ask to we discuss about my dillema's, not about BBO club's. If it is case that my dillema's bore someone, let he pls do not read this TOPIC.

 

You told us your opinion. Why you repeat the same? Do you believe that infinitely repeating statement make statement true ?

 

Your logic system use false induction method. If something is true for 1,2,3,4 we can't conclude that it is always true. If you use false assumptions, you can canclude whatever you want. Im my country we call it demagogy.

[Dragan]

In any system, pick one, how do you bid a hand where you hold 5 clubs and 4 diamonds, and for the sake of argument, have 2-2 in majors and hold a total of 13 pts?

 

Jola

With 5c - 4d you can open always 1c.

 

your pd can than bid:

a. 1d -

b. 1h/s/1nt

c. 2c

 

if he bid a. with 16+ you bid 3d, with 16- you bid 2d

 

if he bid b.

with 16+ you bid 2d

with 16- you bid 2c (1nt rare) or pass in case 1nt bid. If pd isn't minimal he will bid once more so you can show your 4d

 

case c. is simply

 

:-)

[the hog]

No antipathy Dragan, I just can't understand why you are posting this again when you have been unanimously told in this forum and in rgb that you are wrong. Yet you still insist on making the same incorrect statements - the comment on canape and the classic below.

 

With 5c - 4d you can open always 1c.

 

your pd can than bid:

a. 1d -

b. 1h/s/1nt

c. 2c

 

if he bid a. with 16+ you bid 3d, with 16- you bid 2d.

 

And again note that you are TOTALLY INCORRECT.

In PC 1C 1M 2D shows 19+ with a 3 card fit or in other versions 18+ natural game force. Please don't make generalisations when you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. As Doofik says - at least read the 1C and 1D openings.

[doofik]

To Dragan,

 

Before you make certain suggestions, I'd ask you to please read at least 1♣ and the 1♦ openings in Polish Club system. Only after that can we get into a meaningful discussion.

 

To Everyone Else,

 

I don't know the SEF, however, I'd expect an alert and an explanation if something 'untoward' is bid. How's that for peace on Earth?

 

Jola

[Gerben47]

Let me put this more strongly. If the director adjusts score on this board then he should return the appeal deposit out of his own pocket.

 

I think his persistence has to do with his antipathy of Polish Club.

 

I would open 1♦ playing SAYC or Acol or Polish Club or whatever other natural system I might be playing. (Yes PC is natural, in fact more so than SAYC).

 

Nikos, you say that in French Standard you open 1♣ and then rebid 2♣. I respect the opinion of the French but I think it is terrible.

 

Dragan says that if partner bids once more you can show your diamonds. Wrong! Are you ready to bid 3♦ with a minimum?

[Dragan]

To D and R,

 

My answer to Jola is related to Natural based system's. Where I said that answer is related with WJ ? That can conclude everyone with basic knowledge of WJ.

 

I hope other's will read carefull.

 

IF YOU USE FALSE ASSYMPTIONS YOU CAN PROVE EVERYTHING. Using red colours will not make some statements true.

 

Pls, I started this TOPIC. If you do not like my TOPIC, simply do not answer and TOPIC will go to the bottom of the stack. :lol: :) B)

[nikos59]

To Gerben: I did not say that the French rebid 2C, only they

open 1C. With 2-2-4-5 they rebid 1NT. With 1-3-4-5 they

either rebid 1NT or 2C. There are even some revolutionaries

who may raise the major if partner bids a major and they

happen to have 3 cards there with 1345 or 3145.

 

As I said, there is nothing more terrible than playing in 4-2 fit

after 1D-1M/2C-2D [where opener

is 4-5 minors but opened a psychic 1D].

 

Nikos

PS I use the word 'psychic' as a tribute to (I guess) Kaplan.

[Dragan]

Yes Nikos,

 

You had absolutely right. Point is : in all natural based systems with 5c-4d you open 1c.

[the hog]

Absolutely wrong yet again.

 

With weak C and decent Ds in natural based systems with 5c-4d you can certainly open 1D.

[Free]

I haven't answered here, because I found it a really ridiculous thread to start with, but since you still want some extra answers, here's mine:

 

Imo, everybody is allowed not to learn anything about any other system. However, if you want to be a GOOD player, you'll try to learn at least the basics of your opponent's system! I haven't seen many REAL world class players who don't know which defense they'll use against a certain system. They know what their opps are playing, they know what the tactics are, and the play accordingly. If you don't know how WJ2000 works, just read the intro and you'll know enough. You'll know the openings, which is usually enough, but also the reason why they open in a certain way. And perhaps you'll even find it a better system than you currently play and learn it completely. If you don't know anything about any other system, just play a horse...

 

If you don't know what bids mean, you can always ask opps about them. This doesn't mean you have to complain (and keep complaining all over the place) when something happens which in your opinion is wrong, but in the entire community's opinion NOT wrong!

You 'bid' based on YOUR assumption that they play sayc, but WHY would they play sayc anyway? B) They didn't say, you didn't ask. And I'm also quite sure YOU didn't tell them what system YOU are playing!

 

You had your answers (on several forums btw), if you still hope to find someone to stand by your side you'll need a VERY long time...

[hrothgar]

Yes Nikos,

 

You had absolutely right. Point is : in all natural based systems with 5c-4d you open 1c.

Bullshit...

 

Some as well versed in the Laws as you claim you are should have a rudementary understanding of the definition of "natural". More specifically, bridge regulations have always defined canape agreements as natural "treatments" rather than conventions. This includes both major-minor canape sequences and Diamond-Club sequencences.

 

The combination of ignorance and certainty that you exhibit is really starting to get annoying.

[Dragan]

Wrong is assymption that I ask to someone support me. I just set this TOPIC to hear opinions.

 

But some people ( suppouse from one BBO club) come here to crash this disscusion. Why I conclude that: becouse they use same terminology, same argument and repeat his idea's several times.

 

This is some kind of market of TOPICS, so if it is bored to someone or not interesting...simply go to the other topics and this will die at the end of stack.

[Free]

But some people ( suppouse from one BBO club) come here to crash this disscusion. Why I conclude that: becouse they use same terminology, same argument and repeat his idea's several times.

Nobody is crashing the 'discussion' - if you can call it that. Imo it's just 2 sides talking next to eachother instead of against eachother, and one side is a big giant with many experts in the field, the other side is 1 or 2 people I don't know (sorry for that, can't know everybody ;) ).

 

Perhaps it's time you see that 'his' (whoever that might be :) ) argument(s) and idea's are right, especially if lots of people repeat them...

[Dragan]

one side is a big giant with many experts in the field, the other side is 1 or 2 people I don't know (sorry for that, can't know everybody  ;) ).

 

Perhaps it's time you see that 'his' (whoever that might be  :) ) argument(s) and idea's are right, especially if lots of people repeat them...

Side which you call giant measure 5-6 people times 5-6 same post's.

 

Yes they are experts, but self alone "experts". Some of them are greather expert than Cohen or Stevenson. I would add, they are "experts" to use wrong assymtions. As Makiaveli said "Target is..."

 

There are one flower, we call him narcis. Quote smelt on that flower.

[inquiry]

As a moderator, I think it is about time to halt this bickering and let this issue die a natural death.

 

But of course, I will have my say... so I suspect others will want to respond. Dragan, imho, I think you are way wrong. I will show you documented "proof" as to why, and this proof will be more than "one flower". To the ones jumping on Dragan, you could be tamer with your responses.

 

For all interested, in 2001 the Bridge World conducted a poll of a panel of experts (100 I believe) and their readers (on the whole their readers are MUCH better than "average players"). And they asked a series of question on what to do with four card diamond suit, longer club suit and a hand not worthy of a reverse. The purpose was to develop the bidding system "BridgeWorld Standard" which fits Dragan's requirement for a natural system. Here is the questions and the results of the voting...

 

On a minimum-range hand (one lacking the values for a reverse) calling for an opening one-bid in a minor suit with four diamonds and five clubs, opener should . . .

• 236a. always bid one diamond. ZERO of the experts said you should always bid 1♦ and 12% of the readers said you should
  
• 236b. always bid one club, only 19% of the experts said you should ALWAYS bid 1♣ and only 21% of the readers said the same thing.
  
• 236c. use judgment to decide which minor to open. Here a whooping 81% of the experts and 67 percent of the readers said, yes, opener uses his own judgement to decide which to open
  

If you add back the 19% of the readers who always open 1♦ to the judgement class, you will see that 81% of experts and 81% of "average+" natural players are willing to open 1♦ with four diamonds and five clubs,

 

I think it is VERY SAFE then to say, if 81% of pro's and 81% of bridgeworld bidders will open 1♦ with longer clubs, that settles the arguement from the standpoint that this must be standard treatement or at least the most common treatment. As a result of this poll. Bridge World Standard (a system used by people around the world) uses 1♦ bid with longer clubs.

 

For more on the poll, and the results I quoted above and other interesting questions and treatments...see

 

http://www.bridgeworld.com/default.asp?d=b...f=bwspolls.html

 

Ben

 

PS.. one final, ultimate proof, experts open 1♦ with longer ♣.. I bid that way very frequenlty.... so experts must do it. :)

[Dragan]

I wish to thank you inqury. :D

 

This is very pleasant way to shed the light into the case. This is way how we should discuss. I suppouse we all learn something.

 

This is my last message to this TOPIC.