Polish club

[the hog]

"mistakes?

Even it is true what you say, pls note next

 

1. probabilty of 5-3-3-2 is about 9%

2. hands like: AQ KJx Qjx and ♦xxxxx or AQ KJX AQx ♦xxxxx I suppuse you open either 1c either 1nt

 

so my conclusion is : posibility to 1d be balanced is below 5% and worth to alert as UNBALANCED

Dragan "

 

Dragan most posters have been quite tolerant until now, but in reality you have as much idea of what you are talking about as the man in the moon. You have not listened to posters who play PC who have told you that all 5332 hands are opened 1D. Furthermore others have told you that in various versions of PC 1D can be a 4 card suit, therefore all 4432 4333 and 4414 shapes with a 4 card D suit up to about 18 are opened 1D. So from where you have dredged up this 5% is known only to yourself.

 

Stop trying to vindicate your bad result. It was due wholly and solely to atrocious bidding on primarily your part in failing to bid 1S and to a lesser extent on your partner.

[Dragan]

Dragan most posters have been quite tolerant until now, but in reality you have as much idea of what you are talking about as the man in the moon. You have not listened to posters who play PC who have told you that all 5332 hands are opened 1D. Furthermore others have told you that in various versions of PC 1D can be a 4 card suit, therefore all 4432 4333 and 4414 shapes with a 4 card D suit up to about 18 are opened 1D. So from where you have dredged up this 5% is known only to yourself.

 

Stop trying to vindicate your bad result. It was due wholly and solely to atrocious bidding on primarily your part in failing to bid 1S and to a lesser extent on your partner.

terrible....what does it mean ? I'am not tolerant ?

 

1. I listen very carefull all posters

2. I listen and polish players with whom I play WJ

3. But I also read official book for WJ by Jassem where is wroted

 

"

1• Opening

 

Description:

(a) 12-17 HCP with at least 5 diamonds, or any 4-4-4-1 with 4 diamonds

(:) 12-14 HCP, 4 diamonds and 5 clubs

 

Variant (a)

Opening 1• can have a balanced hand and 5 diamonds (5-3-3-2) holding only 12-14 HCP, since we need 15-17 HCP to open 1N. The unbalanced hands with 5 diamonds as well as 3-suiters (4-4-4-1) we open 1• with wider-strength: 12-17 HCP.

 

Variant (B)

With 4 diamonds and 5 clubs we open 1• with at most 14 HCP. With stronger we open 1 and follow by rebidding clubs, showing 15 HCP and 5 clubs, and partner can try still to inquire for a 4-card diamond suit."

 

4. I do not proclaim my opinion as absolutely true, I said it is my conclusion, my opinion, for the difference to the some people here.

 

5. If someone had better argument or majority is on the other side, i should accept that.

 

6. Someone said "5% is only knewn to yourself", if that person is so smart let he exactly count that possiblity.

 

 

Dragan

[pozeracz]

Dragan, pls understand... In Jassem's book there is "after opps 1d/h/s opening our 1nt is natural, ballanced". 90% players or more play it as 5 in unbided minor and 4 in unbided major. In Jassem's book after dbl on 1nt opening xfers are off. But for 90% of polish players xfers are on. In Jassem's book, when P opens 1nt and opp bids smthing dbl/rdbl is penalty. But many players use negative dbl in such auction. Theory and practice. As other posters told you, there are many varies of polish club, and Jassem's wj2000 is handbook, not bible. What is important: 1d opening = 4+ suit (12-17 or 12-22 hcp)

 

Ok, example

myhands, 2004-09-25 01:17

We (NS) play wj2000, opps (EW) play wj98

Polish table, I play as "sciemniacz", my Pd is "jakubwj". Hands:

N- sciemniacz (D): 10xxx x xxx AJxxx

E- delewin: Kxxx xxxx A D10xx

S- jakubwj: Jxx A10xx KQ10x Kx

W- barb01: AQ KQJx Jxxxx xx

 

auction:

N E S W

p - p - 1d - p

p - p

 

 

We really play wj2000, 1d was not alerted, opps were not surprised, so? I think, the conclusion is: 1d opening = 4+ diamonds. That is all. For ballanced hands 12-14hcp we open 1c/d, if we have 15-17(18) opening is 1nt. Is it unusual Dragan?

 

And answering Your question: yes it is true what i say.

 

cheers

[jdulmage]

First off, NO, Advanced+ players do NOT automatically know WJ2000. I know of World Class players who don't know WJ2000 because they don't need to know it.

 

Secondly, I would allow 3NT -2 to stand and give opps proceedural penalty.

 

Lastly, I don't see how you managed to go down in that contract, looks like you have 4 hearts, 4 spades, and a club trick at least.

[hrothgar]

First off, NO, Advanced+ players do NOT automatically know WJ2000. I know of World Class players who don't know WJ2000 because they don't need to know it.

It is rare that I offer the ACBL as an example of what I LIKE about bridge...

With this said and done:

 

In ACBL land, players are expected to be familiar with the basics of those systems in common use within the environment that they are playing.

 

WJ2000 is in VERY common use within BBO.

 

I agree with you that there are Wolrd Class players who are ignorant about systems that they don't happen to play. However, I don't consider them an example to be emulated. Nor, shoudl their laziness excuse others from doing the basic preparation necessary to play well.

[the hog]

"First off, NO, Advanced+ players do NOT automatically know WJ2000. I know of World Class players who don't know WJ2000 because they don't need to know it."

 

I don't believe you. If you use the definition that a world class player plays in international competition, then a world class player will have a basic knowledge of Polish Club because he/she will frequently play against it. Perhaps your "world class" players are not world class after all?

[Maaa]

Arent some 2/1 pairs opening 1♦ with 4♦5♣ ?

Well, I asked once a well respected ACBL TD if I should alert - the answer was,

NO,bcs this is a frequent threatment of a big amount of 2/1 pairs, if then I shall

alert the eventual 2♣ rebid.

I do NOT know what the official rules are (acbl).

 

 

Shall an Advanced player know the basics of systems in common use?

No idea - but an AbaLucy Clubmember MUST know and also this hand,

this disagreement comes from an AbaLucy PRIVATE tournament.

 

 

Greets all :) MJ

[nikos59]

To Ron:

If you find the Bridge World report (c. 2001) where Larry Cohen

is whining about the use of "foreign" systems after his team

was trounced by the Poles in Maastricht Olympiad (they were

losing by so much that abandoned the match, quite a rare event at this level!) you'll see that at least that world class player declared

not to be familiar with the Polish club, at least back then.

 

That said, I agree with you about the substance of the matter.

[the hog]

I have read this Nikos, and also his rantings on rgb for which he copped a heap of flack. Cohen at least did not claim he did not even know the rudiments of Polish Club. A poster on this forum claimed that he knew of world class players who knew nothing about PC, which is what I disputed.

[Aljosa]

Shall an Advanced player know the basics of systems in common use?

No idea - but an AbaLucy Clubmember MUST know and also this hand, this disagreement comes from an AbaLucy PRIVATE tournament.

 

Reading this and all previous post's I wondered !?

 

What is that ABALUCY club ? Some superior club or just usual club ?

[inquiry]

Reading this and all previous post's I wondered !?

 

What is that ABALUCY club ? Some superior club or just usual club ?

I suspect you will get a lot of different answers to this question. So let me give you what I think is a fair assessment, and I hope this is the end of this inquiry.

 

Abalucy is a longstanding private club within the BBO. It has a strict entry requirment where new members ahve to be noiminated by existed members. The existing member has a limited number of nominations they can issue, and the nominating member has to confirm that the playing stregnth of the nominated member is "advanced plus" (whatever that is). IT is my understanding (but I maynot be correct), that new members are on probation and their play might be investigated to see if they are average plus.

 

Since some people are rejected, presumably because they fail this average plus skill test, you can imagine the comparison.. " they would not let me in but I am soooo much better than abalucy member _________ (fill in the blank), who is an intermediate on their best day" and the like. As a private club, Abalucy has a long list of regularily scheduled free tounments for club members. These tourneys are usually well attended.

 

There are people who absolutely love this club (it has a nice webpage at http://www.abalucybridgeclub.com/ ), and others who dislike it tremendously. But in final analysis, it is just a normal club who has a nomination process and who doesn't accept (or keep) all new members or member applications.

 

Ben

[rona_]

If I may put in my two cents worth here, since I spend a major part of my time on bbo kibitzing, I would say that the only two clubs that have advanced+ players only as members, are Topflight and Stars. ;)

[calabres]

If I may put in my two cents worth here, since I spend a major part of my time on bbo kibitzing, I would say that the only two clubs that have advanced+ players only as members, are Topflight and Stars.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I only can smile about this kind of comments.I would like to see "oficial" kibitzers prove in playing their skill level .

This kind of insinuations only show the fault of respect to the hundreds and hundreds of players of Abalucy Club. Why is this Club so atacked if it is the biggest internet Bridge Club? Everyday we have a lot of players trying to join as members of this Club, and the major part is not accepted. We try to keep Abalucy a Club where bridge lovers can play in peace. A big number of TopFlight and Stars Members are in Abalucy too.

Please lets try all to avoid this silly wars on behalf of bridge sanity.

 

Calabres

[rona_]

Calabres, whoever you are, I am not at war with anyone or anything. I stated a well-known fact, and my views. It is allowed here. Kibitzers skills have absolutely nothing to do with this thread, so please post childish remarks somewhere else.;)

 

I was responding to Ben's post.I kib many clubs' tournaments and I have seen people who are intermediates play in abalucy. So basically it isn't a club for advanced+ or experts+ as Ben said. I kibbed my teacher the other day and he questioned his opp who said...sorry I am intermediate:) So I don't see what problem you have with my post.

[calabres]

I have nothing more to say.

The actions stays with the people who makes them.

 

Im a bidge lover, I am member of almost all Clubs in BBO and I respect them all.

 

Long life to BBO and Bridge in general.

 

Calabres

[rona_]

Atta boy ;)

[inquiry]

Let's not start a which club is better war, PLEASE.... I think we can all agree that all the clubs have people of varying skill levels. Topflight strives for "gold star level", Abalucy strives for "advanced plus", there is an abalucy gold which stives for the best of those in abalucy club. So even if teh quality of abalucy membership falls slightly below advanced plus, their gold club must reach at least and probably higher than that... Then there is STARS and other clubs as well... I see nothing productive to come from such comments.... :

 

My mother taught me years ago, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. So I will say this.. topflight, abalucy and stars must all let not the greatest players in... how do I know? I am a member of all three... if they will let me in how high can their standards really be... :-)

 

Ben

[bglover]

You got into Topflight on a technicality and you know it!

[rona_]

;) It is not my intention to start a war neither to offend anyone. I just thought it fair to state my views and observations. :)

[Chamaco]

"First off, NO, Advanced+ players do NOT automatically know WJ2000. I know of World Class players who don't know WJ2000 because they don't need to know it."

 

I don't believe you. If you use the definition that a world class player plays in international competition, then a world class player will have a basic knowledge of Polish Club because he/she will frequently play against it. Perhaps your "world class" players are not world class after all?

For once in a while I have to disagree with Ron here ;)

 

Among some examples of the definition of "World Class" falls Enzo Riolo (RIOLO937 on BBO), who won European Championships some 20 years ago in a team where was playing also the young Lauria.

 

I know him personally, and he does not know anymore many systems outside of those in use in italy (Neapolitan/Blue/Roman Clubs, Precision, Italian 4 card and 5 card major, some canapè systems).

He actually knows little even of the most used SAYC gadgets as well as 2/1 various styles, let alone Polish club.

 

I do believe that one may remain of World Class even if he does not keep up to date with modern bidding theory, but of course this relates to the definition of "World Class" term.

 

Still, I believe my argument is consistent with the definition of "World Class" given i the BBO guidelines though.

 

------------------

 

Just to add an analogy with chess: I believe system knowledge in bridge is akin to opening knowledge in chess.

It certainly consitutes quite an advantage, and most world class players have a good opening knowledge.

 

Yet, there are cases of great players who have switched to playing systems where they do not fight for the slightest theoretical opening advantage, but they simply try to reach a "normal" position where their superior judgement/flair will play its role.

 

They do not overload memory with too many opening variants but they save energy for the middlegame and endgame.

[Dragan]

[quote name='Dragan

 

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=sajt64ha87dq87ca3&w=s9532hk62dt4ct952&e=skh954daj96ckj864&s=sq87hqjt3dk532cq7]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Bidding:

E S W N

1♦ Pass Pass X

2♣ 2♥ 3♣ Pass

Pass 3NT Pass Pass

Pass

 

Result: 3NT -2

 

Facts:

1) opps not alert 1♦ bid' date=' althought it is limited to 11-18HCP and can hold longer suit than [di']

2) opps not alert 2♣ bid, althought it can be canape and when it is canape it is 11-15HCP, which is actually

3) Information that E/W pair play WJ2000 N/S got after bidding is finished, S player isn't familiar with WJ2000

4) N/S apealed

5) director leave reached result

 

Dillema's :

1) If opening bid include some specific hand like Canape, alert or not

2) If bid include or exclude some specific type of hand, alert or not

3) If previous is true, what is the sanction vs that players and what about their oponents

 

With Regards, Dragan

 

 

Pls folk's. I set this TOPIC's to we discuss one opening bid and one sequence bid's in polish club system. Let we pls discuss about this.

 

If you want to discuss about BBO club's, pls open such TOPICS.

 

Dragan.

[doofik]

Dragan,

 

I think I admire your persistence, but am not sure.

 

In any system, pick one, how do you bid a hand where you hold 5 clubs and 4 diamonds, and for the sake of argument, have 2-2 in majors and hold a total of 13 pts?

 

Jola

[jtfanclub]

Dragan,

 

I think I admire your persistence, but am not sure.

I'm sure.

 

Every single person who has replied has said that neither 1♦ nor 2♣ needs to be alerted. We've pointed out sites, directors, official information from associations, and examples of SAYC making the exact same bids. We have also pointed out that 1♦ is not guaranteed unbalanced in Polish Club, and virtually every system allows you to open 1♦ with four diamonds and five clubs. And we've gone over this for a month.

 

But somehow, he thinks if he brings it up yet again somebody, somewhere, might agree with him.

 

This is hopeless.

[the hog]

Facts:

1) opps not alert 1♦ bid, althought it is limited to 11-18HCP and can hold longer suit than ♦

 

You have been told by at least 4 posters that this comment is incorrect and yet you persist in making it

 

2) opps not alert 2♣ bid, althought it can be canape and when it is canape it is 11-15HCP, which is actually

 

So what? Same for many in 2/1 or Sayc or Acol. Again you have been told this.

 

3) Information that E/W pair play WJ2000 N/S got after bidding is finished, S player isn't familiar with WJ2000

 

Yes they should have said at the start but there was no damage. Again you were told this. Incidentally, did you tell them what system you were playing?

 

4) N/S apealed

 

Totally fatuous appeal. In a competition you would lose your deposit.

 

5) director leave reached result

 

Correctly so. Deposit forfeited and North South warned not to waste the appeal committee's time.

 

Penultimate fact:

 

Poor bidding by North and South led to their bad result. Why did Nth double rather than bid 1S? Is AJT to 5 not a biddable suit for Nth? Why did Sth think that Qx was a stopper. Again you have been told this by numerous people.

 

Final fact:

 

This is getting boring.

[Aljosa]

I think that problem is seted correctly. You can agree or disagree. I note big antypathy to Dragan in Ron's latter. :lol:

 

Exuse me, but I can accept only apsolutic statement only from WBF directors, not from anonymous( Especially not from one with antypathy)

 

Apealing to director's decision is quite normal. Jury can accept it or not. Furthermore if jury think that apeal is not correct, money can be holded.

 

I'am the one who think that 1d(unbalance) and 1d-2c(could be canape) should be alerted. I talk about this problem with polish players and find divided opinion's.