Polish club

[Dragan]

Sat Sep 25 01:34 pm CDT ABALUCY Pairs IMP Show boards #594 Pairs ABALUCY Sat Swiss w Calabres

 

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=sajt64ha87dq87ca3&w=s9532hk62dt4ct952&e=skh954daj96ckj864&s=sq87hqjt3dk532cq7]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

Bidding:

E S W N

1♦ Pass Pass X

2♣ 2♥ 3♣ Pass

Pass 3NT Pass Pass

Pass

 

Result: 3NT -2

 

Facts:

1) opps not alert 1♦ bid, althought it is limited to 11-18HCP and can hold longer suit than ♦

2) opps not alert 2♣ bid, althought it can be canape and when it is canape it is 11-15HCP, which is actually

3) Information that E/W pair play WJ2000 N/S got after bidding is finished, S player isn't familiar with WJ2000

4) N/S apealed

5) director leave reached result

 

Dillema's :

1) If opening bid include some specific hand like Canape, alert or not

2) If bid include or exclude some specific type of hand, alert or not

3) If previous is true, what is the sanction vs that players and what about their oponents

 

With Regards, Dragan

 

P.S. link to the hand http://online.bridgebase.com/cgi-bin/history.pl?...00&p=2004-09-25

 

time 18:39

[hrothgar]

Number of separate issues that need to be considered here:

 

First and foremost: You were playing in Abalucy, which has well published requirements regarding disclosure. In particular, please look at the following quote from the Abalucy Alert requirements:

 

"AbaLucy tournaments will REQUIRE each pair to give brief explanation of carding and system upon arrival at new table AND/OR have a convention card available from the BBO Conv Card facility. Currently there are no BBO director tools available to assign penalties for such offenses, however players and directors will be encouraged to complete a complaint form on the AbaLucy website. Offenders will have a record and notes added to the AbaLucy database, repeat offenders will be dealt with accordingly."

 

Reading this, it seems clear a failure to disclose in advance that a pair is playing Polish Club/WJ 200 is grounds for adjustment. Furthermore, the appropriate course of action is clearly identified: This issue SHOULD be raised with Abalucy's administrator's.

 

The second issue is whether or not either pair deserves an adjusted score:

 

From my perspective, the failure to alert is "subsequent but not consequent" to the damage. This is a fancy way of saying that the opponent's failure to alert happened before you screwed up, but didn't cause your bad score.

 

1. Any number of bidding systems including many"standard" methods prefer a 1♦ opening with the East hand. An advanced+ player should know this. Equally significant, an advanced+ player should be familiar with the basics of WJ2000 and Polish club.

 

2. I'm very sorry that your methods don't allow you to find your 8 card Spade fit. I'm equally sorry that South believed that a quack rich 10 count with Qx as a stopper in the opponent's bid and raised suit is sufficient to FORCE to 2NT opposite partner's balancing double.

 

In short, I don't see how your bad result can said to be a result of the failure to alert 1♦.

 

Ruling:

 

Result stands

Proceedural penalty for the opponents

[Dragan]

1) it is absolutely clear: There are no protect for your own bad bidding or playing. So I also think that 3nt-2 should stay to N/S.

 

2) Point is: in actuall example 1d-p-p-x-2c, opener bid 11-15HCP, 4d+5c (With 5c and 15+HCP's they open 1c). That is quite unusual for players who are not very familiar with WJ2000; That was hiden to opps. Is that bridge ?

 

3) Alert procedure use to warn me to ask if I want to entry in auction or when opps finish auction to ask of meanings of bid's and make plan of defence. Suppouse I do not knew opps's system and opps nothing alert - I'am not warned. That is big foul.

 

4) There are so mouch Polish players, furthemore excellent players, but whole world is little bit larger, and they must learn to alert exotic's from polish club.

 

5) I set up same example at google bridge group so you can follow there what's happen if you are interested.

 

:)

 

Dragan

[hrothgar]

2) Point is: in actuall example 1d-p-p-x-2c, opener bid 11-15HCP, 4d+5c (With 5c and 15+HCP's they open 1c). That is quite unusual for players who are not very familiar with WJ2000; That was hiden to opps. Is that bridge ?

Everyone is in agreement that the opponents should receive a proceedural penalty for failing to alert that they are playing WJ2000. Quite honestly, the entire rest of your example is largely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. [One very important point that needs to be considered... Did the opponents have a convention card posted?]

 

With this said and done:

 

1. Advanced+ players should know the basics of WJ2000. Novices deserve extra potection, but if you are playing in an "elite" turnament like Abalucy, you don't get to claim this defense.

 

2. As Henk noted on rec.games.bridge and I noted here: A 1♦ opening is standard for most 5 card major systems. This is not an example where the pponent's failure to alert their 1♦ opening caused any damage.

[Dragan]

1) statement "Advanced+ players should know the basics of WJ2000" is false. Prove: I can tell You names of participant's of Euro 2004 which do not knew anything about WJ (escpecialy sequence 1d p p x 2c ) ? Or if you want: let we make poll here in ABALUCY set of player's about their knowledge of WJ and this sequence ?

2) I like to hear solution how I should found spade fit in this auction...that is very interesting.

 

With Regards, Dragan

[guggie]

What about 1♦-pass-pass-1♠? If p can manage a reply, you can give it another push.

[hrothgar]

>1) statement "Advanced+ players should know the basics of WJ2000"

>is false. Prove: I can tell You names of participant's of Euro 2004 which

>do not knew anything about WJ (escpecialy sequence 1d p p x 2c ) ?

 

Emphasis on the word should... There are plenty of ignorant folks out there, however, they get little sympathy if they title themselves experts.

 

>Or if you want: let we make poll here in ABALUCY set of player's about their

>knowledge of WJ and this sequence ?

 

>2) I like to hear solution how I should found spade fit in this auction...

>that is very interesting.

 

A 1♠ bid is a good start.

 

You have a 7 loser hand and a 5=3=3=2 shape. Neither feature excites me that much. so I'm not too worried about starting with a weakish sounding bid.

[the hog]

! agree totally with Richard. Furthermore Dragan has made some errors in his description of WJ. The 1D opening can only be canape in C, not in any other suit as suggested by Dragan. Many pairs would open 1D on this hand, (I am not debating the merits or otherwise of doing so). Yes, I would impose a procedural penalty for failing to alert

 

Furthermore a poll in Abalucy proves nothing; as Richard says there are a lot of ignoramuses out there. If you play a lot on line I believe you have an obligation to learn a little about the most common systems played, (Acol, Sayc, 2/1, WJ).

 

Regarding finding your S contract - a 1S bid is pretty obvious on the North hand.

 

Finally, 3N was played by North, right? Is it not ice cold? Would not any real bridge player have dropped the stiff K of S after the opening bid?

 

Ron

[peefco]

[hv=n=sajt64ha87dq87ca3&w=s9532hk642dtct952&e=skh95daj964ckj864&s=sq87hqjt3dk532cq7]399|300|[/hv]

 

Bidding:

E S W N

1♦ Pass Pass X

2♣ 2♥ 3♣ Pass

Pass 3NT Pass Pass

Pass

 

Does anyone would have any problem with alerting this hand ?

 

For me that what happend in Abalucy Swiss/Calabres is very obvious. Dragan lost the board and was trying to win useing director, but unfortunatelly Calabres was not very useful :ph34r:. I egree with Luis in 100%, if I was hosting this tourney my decision would be exactly the same.

 

In his next post Dragan says :

 

"4) There are so mouch Polish players, furthemore excellent players, but whole world is little bit larger, and they must learn to alert exotic's from polish club."

 

Anytime I log in to BBO during the daytime in Poland 10%-20% BBO users are Polish, so maybe its not a bad idea to learn about opening bids in Polish Club due most of them play this system. Its just 5 bids.... let say 2 (1!C and 1!D).... let say 1 (1!c)

[jtfanclub]

Facts:

1) opps not alert 1♦ bid, althought it is limited to 11-18HCP and can hold longer suit than ♦

I play a Precision system in which 1♦ is limited to 11-15 HCP, 4+ diamonds, may have longer clubs. I wrote to the ACBL and asked if I should alert this. The answer was no. The definition of this sequence is the same in his and mine, and mine should not be alerted, therefore his shouldn't be alerted. I don't know if there are special rules in ABA Lucy, but good luck on getting satisfaction in an ordinary tournament.

 

If they didn't have a convention card, that's a procedural penalty. If they did have a card, then they did nothing wrong.

[Gerardo]

BBO is not ACBL land, as far as I know, so ACBL is not the ultimate authority.

 

Nothing else to see here, agree on the "no alert needed" answer.

[SirSatai]

ok here is another board about Dragan #241 pairs board 5 25/september same bid problem bye dragan

and i did not accept adjusment for him he wants A= and also we have got little bid argument centely please check hand and add your ideas if i made a mistakes i want to learn correct

thanks

[Dragan]

:)

 

1* I do not ask to someone protect my bad bidding/play. I like to respect instutution of director. I just ask to we punish someone who made foul, same as in other sports. It is related also on me.

 

2* If you ask polish club player what is 1d almost all will say that it is natural 4+card d. But, if you carefully read book of Jannem "WJ2000" you will notice that it is also UNBALANCE HAND.

 

3* I see, I'am minority here, but look at google group same discussion and notice opinion of David Stevenson about WJ. I suppuse You knew who is that gentleman.

 

4* Seems all here try to find my mistakes. I'am greatfull for that, since we learn on mistakes.

 

With Regards, Dragan

[the hog]

Yes I know Stevenson. I also read his post and it does not support your view.

1D does not have to be unbalanced Dragan. A 5332 with 5D in the 11-14 range opens 1D. Also in some older versions, and in the new WJ2005 1D is bid on a 4 card suit. In fact with a balanced hand in the 11-14 range a 1C opening denies 4D in Matula's version and also in WJ2005.

[Gerben47]

About the bidding: I would not double but bid 1♠.

 

The problem is that there is no world standard bidding system. WJ2000 1♦ is a natural opening bid and does not need an alert, and neither does a SAYC 1♦ which can be on 3 small, which would surprise many players around the world, or Acol 1♦ that denies a balanced hand outside NT range with 4♦+4M.

There are even different ways of playing this in Poland.

 

Same with 2♣. This is a NATURAL bid, shows at least 4 cards in the bid suit and not forcing. This is not special at all.

 

However the inferences are not the same in every system. I bet they are different for many different systems. Usually irrelevant in the auction, they should not be alerted but if a different 'basic system' is shown on the CC (for example WJ2000) and you don't know this system, you should ask about natural bids too if you need to know.

 

Conclusion:

 

WRONG: Adv players should know WJ2000

RIGHT: Adv players should know to ask about nat. sequences if they really need to know if unfamiliar with opps system

[Dragan]

Only for those who can read carefull and wish to understand.

 

Pls look previous discussing...and now read this...

 

"richard willey wrote

 

>1. Any number of bidding systems including many"standard" methods

>prefer a 1D opening with the East hand. An advanced+ player should

>know this. Equally significant, an advanced+ player should be familiar

>with the basics of WJ2000 and Polish club.

 

That's a hell of a statement, and makes me wonder what level I am.

 

I do not even know the opening bids in WJ2000, which I have never ever

played against.

 

Is Abalucy limited to players from some geographical area?

 

--

David Stevenson Bridge RTFLB Cats Railways /\ /\

Liverpool, England, UK Fax: +44 870 055 7697 @ @

<bridge2@blakjak.com> ICQ 20039682 bluejak on OKB =( + )=

Bridgepage: http://blakjak.com/brg_menu.htm ~

Post a follow-up to this message

 

"

 

CONCLUDE ALONE. No comment.

 

Dragan

[hrothgar]

Only for those who can read carefull and wish to understand.

 

Pls look previous discussing...and now read this...

 

"richard willey wrote

 

>1. Any number of bidding systems including many"standard" methods

>prefer a 1D opening with the East hand. An advanced+ player should

>know this. Equally significant, an advanced+ player should be familiar

>with the basics of WJ2000 and Polish club.

 

  That's a hell of a statement, and makes me wonder what level I am.

 

  I do not even know the opening bids in WJ2000, which I have never ever

played against.

 

  Is Abalucy limited to players from some geographical area?

 

--

David Stevenson              Bridge  RTFLB  Cats  Railways    /\ /\

Liverpool, England, UK        Fax: +44 870 055 7697              @ @

<bridge2@blakjak.com>        ICQ 20039682    bluejak on OKB  =( + )=

            Bridgepage:        http://blakjak.com/brg_menu.htm      ~

Post a follow-up to this message

 

"

 

CONCLUDE ALONE.  No comment.

 

Dragan

 

Good for you, Dragan. You've found an expert level player who doesn't know WJ2000. I can name quite a few others. However, that doesn't detract from the main point:

 

Strong players are expected to familiarize themselves with those methods in common use in their playing environment. For what its worth, the ACBL convention charts used to contain an explicit label to this effect.

 

David Stevenson happens to play almost exclusively in Great Britain and rarely plays online. However, if you continue further in the rec.games.bridge thread, he makes the following comment: "Well, I have never played against Polish Club that I remember, though at least I have a fair idea of the basics."

 

Note the following:

 

(A) Stevenson has never once played against Polish Club

(B) He still knows the basics of the system

 

I don't consider this a very convincing example why advanced+ level players, competing in a playing environment where Polish Club is easily one of the five most popular methods being used, have a right to complain about not recieving an adjustment to compensate for their inferior bidding/play...

 

Furthermore, I have yet to see a single posting that supports the position that you should receive an adjustment

[doofik]

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents worth as Polish Club or WJ2000 is my system of choice.

 

1♦ is one of many hands but it certainly promises 4+ in diamonds. With some partners I play 1♦ as 11-17 and with others 11-21. The latter always gets an alert.

 

The rest of the auction in this post is standard.

 

I've made it a point of announcing the system at any table I happen to be playing in but I refuse to respond to inquiries about unalerted bids which are standard. I keep advising my opponents "no alert=standard". And yes, I'm ethical enough to alert anything that's conventional.

 

The bidding example that Dragan brought up would be the same in SAYC, 2/1, and I'll presume that Dragan is familiar with those. So when a bid is standard, why should opps alert?

 

Jola

[jtfanclub]

BBO is not ACBL land, as far as I know, so ACBL is not the ultimate authority.

 

Nothing else to see here, agree on the "no alert needed" answer.

If I don't alert something that the ACBL, WBF, or any other major organization says should not be alerted, and the director gives me a penalty for not alerting it, I will be, to put it politely, upset.

[Gerardo]

BBO is not ACBL land, as far as I know, so ACBL is not the ultimate authority.

 

Nothing else to see here, agree on the "no alert needed" answer.

If I don't alert something that the ACBL, WBF, or any other major organization says should not be alerted, and the director gives me a penalty for not alerting it, I will be, to put it politely, upset.

It depends on the Conditions of Contest.

I think I remember yo have to alert Stayman in some (A(ustralian)BF? May be wrong)

If you play under those CoC, you don't alert, and you're penalized, why should you be upset?

What I say is, if there are no specified CoC, that's dangerous in itself because it means rules on the fly, BUT ACBL CoC do NOT apply by default, which I understood you meant. Sorry if that is not the case.

[helene_t]

It might make sense to explain the 1♦-opening as "4+ unballanced may have longer clubs". Depends on the level of the opps. Personally, I would expect something like this to be the meaning, or at least a likely meaning, of a natural 1♦-opening in any system that I'd never heard about and which does not sound like a dialect of Acol/StdAm.

[pozeracz]

There are several mistakes here, I will try to explain it again.

1. wj2000 1d opening may be ballanced or unballanced

2. in this seqence 2c is not limited to 14hcp and/or 4 clubs, it may be also 4ex. 17hcp and 1-2-5-5

3. if I have 5 clubs and 4 diamonds and I bid diamonds first I do not promise good hand. If I have 5 clubs and 4 diamonds and I bid clubs first it is strong hand. Imho it is not very strange.

4. many polish club players open 1d also if they have 4 diamonds and 1 or 2 clubs (3-4-4-2 or simillar), or if they have 5d-332.

 

Cheers

[Dragan]

There are several mistakes here, I will try to explain it again.

1. wj2000 1d opening may be ballanced or unballanced

mistakes?

Even it is true what you say, pls note next

 

1. probabilty of 5-3-3-2 is about 9%

2. hands like: AQ KJx Qjx and ♦xxxxx or AQ KJX AQx ♦xxxxx I suppuse you open either 1c either 1nt

 

so my conclusion is : posibility to 1d be balanced is below 5% and worth to alert as UNBALANCED

 

 

Dragan

[jtfanclub]

There are several mistakes here, I will try to explain it again.

1. wj2000 1d opening may be ballanced or unballanced

mistakes?

Even it is true what you say, pls note next

 

1. probabilty of 5-3-3-2 is about 9%

2. hands like: AQ KJx Qjx and ♦xxxxx or AQ KJX AQx ♦xxxxx I suppuse you open either 1c either 1nt

 

so my conclusion is : posibility to 1d be balanced is below 5% and worth to alert as UNBALANCED

 

 

Dragan

If I'm playing ACOL, my 1D bid is most likely unbalanced. The same is true for any system with a weak NT. There's a lot of hands opened 1D that are balanced in Polish Club, most of them having 16-18 hcp.

 

What exactly is he supposed to alert? That if his hand is in the 11-14 hcp range (remember, the 1D opening is 11-18) that he's most likely unbalanced? Do you alert that your 1D opening is unbalanced if you have 15-17 hcp, or whatever your no-trump range is?

 

This is going way beyond pushing it.

[hrothgar]

There are several mistakes here, I will try to explain it again.

1. wj2000 1d opening may be ballanced or unballanced

mistakes?

Even it is true what you say, pls note next

 

1. probabilty of 5-3-3-2 is about 9%

2. hands like: AQ KJx Qjx and ♦xxxxx or AQ KJX AQx ♦xxxxx I suppuse you open either 1c either 1nt

 

so my conclusion is : posibility to 1d be balanced is below 5% and worth to alert as UNBALANCED

 

 

Dragan

Interesting theory, lets see how well this works

 

If I am playing "standard", my 1♣ opening promises ~ 12-21 HCP, or about 34.45% of all hands.

 

12 HCP = 23.22%

13 HCP = 20.3%

14 HCP = 16.5%

15 HCP = 12.8%

16 HCP = 9.6%

17 HCP = 7%

18 HCP = 4.6%

19 HCP = 3%

20 HCP = 1.9%

21 HCP = 1.2%

 

So, from the looks of things, you would advise that I should announce that my range is actually 12-17 HCP since the chance of having 18+ HCP is just too small to worry about?