quiddity Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 2/1, forcing NT. Is the sequence 1♠-1NT; 2♥-3♥ generally played as invitational or "courtesy"? And a related question: what is the bottom range for 1♠-1NT; 3♥? How do you avoid missing game with 15-17 opposite 9-10 with a heart fit? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 3♥ shows a hand that sees some game perspective but can't commit to game. Something like 8-10 points. With 15-17 opener will bid game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 1S-1N; 3X (X not spades) is game forcing, so your range on 1S-1N; 2H is any non-GF hand. Therefore, 3H is not a courtesy, but with any hand with a fit that sees game potential, 3H should be bid. This is also why we give false preference (to 2S in this case) often. Sometimes opener has _just_ enough to make one more try with a non-GF hand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmcw Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Opener is forced to reply, a non jump rebid in a lower ranking suit has a fairly wide range perhaps 11+ to 16 depending on your style. Typically, responder will need about 10 or 11 points and at least a 4 card fit to invite. I would raise to 3♥ on something like: Kx Axxxx xxxx x or Kx Kxxx AJx xxxx but pass 2♥ on xx QJxx KJx Kxxx. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiddity Posted July 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I guess that's another related question: would you ever give false preference as responder with two spades and four hearts? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I guess that's another related question: would you ever give false preference as responder with two spades and four hearts? NO ! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I guess that's another related question: would you ever give false preference as responder with two spades and four hearts? No, you either raise or pass. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Warning - partial hijack approaching! The sequence 1♠ - 1NT (forcing) - 3♥ is played by a number of experts as showing 5-5 in the majors. With 5-4 in the majors, opener bids 3♣ (artificial). Responder can bid 3♥ with 4 hearts over the 3♣ rebid to locate the potential 4-4 fit. Personally, I play a more involved structure over 1M-1NT (forcing) in which it is possible for opener to show invitational 5-5 hands as well as a variety of forcing hands. I have presented the structure previously and it was written up in The Bridge World quite a number of years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurpoa Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 NO ! ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ WHY ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooltuna Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 ♥♥ WHY ? because a 44 fit rates to play better than a 52 fit. of course you have to guess that partner is 54xy rather than 64uv. which is more likely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 I guess that's another related question: would you ever give false preference as responder with two spades and four hearts? Probably no, although I see that strategy has some advantages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 I guess that's another related question: would you ever give false preference as responder with two spades and four hearts? No! Why would you? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Warning - partial hijack approaching! The sequence 1♠ - 1NT (forcing) - 3♥ is played by a number of experts as showing 5-5 in the majors. With 5-4 in the majors, opener bids 3♣ (artificial). Responder can bid 3♥ with 4 hearts over the 3♣ rebid to locate the potential 4-4 fit. Personally, I play a more involved structure over 1M-1NT (forcing) in which it is possible for opener to show invitational 5-5 hands as well as a variety of forcing hands. I have presented the structure previously and it was written up in The Bridge World quite a number of years ago. There is also Gazilli. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Warning - partial hijack approaching! The sequence 1♠ - 1NT (forcing) - 3♥ is played by a number of experts as showing 5-5 in the majors. With 5-4 in the majors, opener bids 3♣ (artificial). Responder can bid 3♥ with 4 hearts over the 3♣ rebid to locate the potential 4-4 fit. Personally, I play a more involved structure over 1M-1NT (forcing) in which it is possible for opener to show invitational 5-5 hands as well as a variety of forcing hands. I have presented the structure previously and it was written up in The Bridge World quite a number of years ago.The more common approach, over the artificial 3♣, which will often be based on a real black 2 suiter, is to use 3♦ by responder as artificial, to allow opener to rebid 3♥ with 4 hearts, 3♠ with a power one-suiter, 3N with 4♣ and willingness to play 3N, and 4♣ with a radical two suiter.. 3♥ over 3♣ shows long hearts. This method was described, many years ago, in the BW as Jeff's Magic Elixir, if memory serves. I've played variants of this for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 The reason you might give false preference on 2=4 in the majors is because you play 3♥ as invitational, and you're too weak for that, but can envisage game opposite a hand in the 17-18 range. By bidding 2♠, you give partner another chance to bid if he's fairly strong, but avoid carrying the partnership to game with 14 opposite 8. Would I ever do that? Yes, if I were obliged by my methods to play 3♥ as genuinely invitational, and especially playing IMPs, I would give false preference on something like a 2=4 8-count. Obviously, I'd prefer to be playing better methods. Apart from what has been mentioned here already, there are also:- Play transfers by opener, so with a 5-4 18-count he can bid 1♠-1NT;2♦-2♥;2NT.- Play 1♠-1NT;2♣ as a puppet to 2♦, after which 2♥ shows a better hand than a direct 2♥.- Include your balanced invitations in one of your two-level responses. Then you have an extra way to raise hearts: 1♠-1NT;2♥-2NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurpoa Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 There is also Gazilli. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥and also Ladinski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 The reason you might give false preference on 2=4 in the majors is because you play 3♥ as invitational, and you're too weak for that, but can envisage game opposite a hand in the 17-18 range. By bidding 2♠, you give partner another chance to bid if he's fairly strong, but avoid carrying the partnership to game with 14 opposite 8. Would I ever do that? Yes, if I were obliged by my methods to play 3♥ as genuinely invitational, and especially playing IMPs, I would give false preference on something like a 2=4 8-count. Obviously, I'd prefer to be playing better methods. Apart from what has been mentioned here already, there are also:- Play transfers by opener, so with a 5-4 18-count he can bid 1♠-1NT;2♦-2♥;2NT.- Play 1♠-1NT;2♣ as a puppet to 2♦, after which 2♥ shows a better hand than a direct 2♥.- Include your balanced invitations in one of your two-level responses. Then you have an extra way to raise hearts: 1♠-1NT;2♥-2NT. With all due respects, a treatment where you are forced to give preference to playing in a 5-2 fit where a 4-4 M fit is available leaves a lot to be desired systemically. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 That is probably correct, but you can't solve the problem without artificial means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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