Support bidding

[Poky]

All love. IMP.

 

♠10xx

♥KQ

♦QJ

♣KQJ10xx

 

1♠ - 3♦ - ???

[inquiry]

The bid for me is 4♣'s. I am not going to bid 3♠ and languish in part-score. Nor am I going to bid 4♠ and imply a weaker hand.

 

4♣ is a FIT NON-JUMP that shows spade support, and values in clubs. It promises nothing more (it is not a slam try) unless I take some other action later. It is meant to help partner decide to defend or bid on against a 5♦ bid by them. If he has club singlton or void, he will defend, for instance.

[the hog]

I agree with Ben's comments. This hand is too good for 3S and 4S. Pd needs to be aware that 4C will be a fnj.

[whereagles]

Somehow I feel 4S won't make opposite a min hand from pard... we may have the points, but the hints are against game making - diamond wastage, lack of aces in dummy, short weak trumps... Unless pard's min is solid spades plus club ace, I don't think we make it.

 

I'm tempted into a masterminding 3S bid :) I won't take any credit if 3S makes exactly, and I sure am going to take the blame if pard passes and 4S is cold. But I feel 3S is the winning bid and I'm going to make it - I prefer to win at table than in post-mortems :)

[Flame]

I disagree with Ben and Ron, this isnt a hand which i want partner to consider bidding over 5D, i have 3 card spade support, total tricks can be 16,and i have QJ in opponents suit, 3sp might be too high, so why do i think about 5sp ? I would treat this as a 17-18 TT which oviously doesnt mean i am thinking of 5 level.

my choices are between double, and 4d. I think i'll choose 4d which is simpler, and probebly best with 18 TT.

[Fluffy]

4♣ promises fit? how come? what do you bid with ♣A and 1 less ♠?

 

4♦ to me: showing support and strenght, maybe not the best shape, but none is perfect :)

[luke warm]

i'm not sure if 4c is fnj, but i'm bidding it anyway.... i know if i was playing with ben or ron either would take this as a fnj, and that'd be fine this hand... with one fewer spade, as fluffy said, what do i do? guess it depends on where that extra card is...

 

i don't agree that this shouldn't be a hand where partner can think about competing to the 5 level... yeah, 3s might be the limit, but somehow i doubt it... this is our hand, to play or to double

[Flame]

4c for me is very offensive bid, should have atleast this ODR

KQxx

xxx

x

KQJxx

[han]

4S for me, I don't play 4C here as a FJS, but even if I did I wouldn't use it. I think that 4S does justice to this hand, which looks much better than it is.

 

I don't bid 4D, partner would expect a hand more suitable for slam.

[pclayton]

Ditto Ben and Ron; 4♣ is FSNJ, although in theory I would like a 4th trump. Maybe the 6th club compensates.

[Poky]

Ditto Ben and Ron; 4♣ is FSNJ, although in theory I would like a 4th trump. Maybe the 6th club compensates.

You aren't a pased hand so is supposed that you play natural, it means:

Dbl= negative

3♥= forcing with hearts

3♠= simple raise, constructive

3NT= to play

4♣= forcing with clubs

4♦= good spade raise

4♥= to play, offensive hand (or FSJ if you like to play this way)

4♠= to play, offensive hand

 

Why should 4♣ by a unlimited hand be FNJ? Never heard of anybody that plays this way. In this scheme is 3♥ also a FNJ to 3♠ maybe? I presume I should dbl if I have GF with 6+♣ and no fit? Or not?... Makes no sense to me...

[inquiry]

Ditto Ben and Ron; 4♣ is FSNJ, although in theory I would like a 4th trump. Maybe the 6th club compensates.

You aren't a pased hand so is supposed that you play natural, it means:

Dbl= negative

3♥= forcing with hearts

3♠= simple raise, constructive

3NT= to play

4♣= forcing with clubs

4♦= good spade raise

4♥= to play, offensive hand (or FSJ if you like to play this way)

4♠= to play, offensive hand

 

Why should 4♣ by a unlimited hand be FNJ? Never heard of anybody that plays this way. In this scheme is 3♥ also a FNJ to 3♠ maybe? I presume I should dbl if I have GF with 6+♣ and no fit? Or not?... Makes no sense to me...

Well, now you have heard me, ron, and phil at the least. In addtion, Flame but not with this hand - so that is four people in this short thread who play 4♣ here as fit non-jump.

[Fluffy]

Playing fit non jump on this sequence lloks great on the cards given, just wondering what would you do when you have a natural 4♣ overcall then.

[han]

Also wondering what your rule is for FNJ, at what level do they start with an unlimited hand?

[Flame]

FNJ are not without a cost, the theory beind it is that when you have a one suiter hand you will not lose too much by not being able to bid it, while on the fit hands you will gain more. If you have the natural one suiter hand you will need to either double or pass, and as i said before on theory is you wont lose too much because of it.

[laughter]

Just disagree with Frame.

 

You can always survive by directly supporting partner without a Fit Showing Bids, while you are genuinely stuck if you can't show your suit naturally.

 

Negative doubles with good one suiter won't work as:

1. opener may pass it at high level.

2. opponent may preempt.

3. you lose one round of bidding when you can't directly show your suit.

 

To support my view, I quote from an interview of Eric Rodwell:

 

BridgeMatters: What about weak jump shifts in competition compared to fit showing jump shifts?

 

Eric Rodwell: Fit showing jump shifts are very popular in the Washington area. Again, it sort of seems to come from the ‘the only hands that matters are those that have a fit for partner’ type of thinking, which I don’t think I buy into, really. Say it goes 1D, 1S, certainly it is nice if I have seven hearts to the KJT to bid a preemptive three hearts but I don’t think it is critical. After 1D, 1S, bidding 3H is a little unwieldy anyway because I am forcing the bidding to 4D. I think probably the best situations to be using fit showing jumps are passed hand jumps. Like Pass, Pass, 1S, 2C, 3D, showing diamonds and spades. The need for a natural 3D is very minimal by a passed hand. When partner overcalls, I think they are a little more useful then when partner opens. But just the same, if I have a long suit, I have no way to express that.

[inquiry]

Playing fit non jump on this sequence lloks great on the cards given, just wondering what would you do when you have a natural 4♣ overcall then.

 

Let me deal with the questions about fit nonjump here, starting with Fluffy.

 

I use double here as Thrump kind of double at the three level (three notrump double), looking for stopper for 3Nt first, the other major or my minor second. So with a four club natural bid, i would double.. .and have a shot at 4C anyway.

 

To hannie.. the following are typical rules for FNJ.

 

1) new suits by passed hand at 3 and 4 level are FNJ

2) new suit when the opponents show a lot of points are FNJ.

3) new suit after we preempt are FNJ and/or lead directing and/or setting defense for possible save based on double fit... depends a little on the auction (for instance if you will be on lead, it is never lead directing, and thus sac suggeting).

 

To pull out new suits at the four and five level as FNJ requires some discussion with partner. I guess it is always possible you were dealt 8 clubs and nothing else would do but you bid and play exactly four clubs. But I would decide between 5C and pass/double. My double never has support.

 

Finally to laughter, you give a nice quote but the text before the quote suggest maybe you don't understand fit jumps. For example, you say "You can always survive by directly supporting partner without a Fit Showing Bids" suggest perhaps a lack of understanding of the fuctions of fit jumps (and nonjumps). A jump to 4S becomes too overload... can be very weak based on LOTT, can be a stretch hand like this one, or can be a solid game going hand.

 

In each case, you in fact maynot survive.. if you have the first hand (really weak), but your partner thinks you may have the last, he will bid again and you can get too darn high.

 

If you have the third hand, and partner is worried you have the first he will pass, and you can easily miss slam.

 

And if you have this hand, and the opponents bid 5D.. your partner with a club fit, will do best to bid on.. with out a club fit, will do best to defend.. and of course, after you bid 4C if they bid 5D, with QJx of diamonds, you are doubling if given a choice...

 

Now, if you want to keep the ability to play exaclty 4C, or if you are willing to bid 4C on a hand when it is forcing and

1) You don't also have hearts (no neg double if you play them)

2) You don't have a fit for spades,

3) Your hand is unsuited for a direct 3NT bid, and

4) Your hand is not ok for direct 5C bid...

5) And your hand is not suited for double followed by introducing clubs at whatever level... then,

 

I want to see the hand...... on the other hand, I can show you a ton of very frequent hands where a 4S bid weak, a 4C bid fnj work very well indeed.

 

Ben

[whereagles]

It's all a matter of frequency, and actually both Rodwell and Robson have, in my perspective, got it wrong.

 

The Robson fit-bid is a very rare bird. I've been playing it for two years now and I made the bid exactly ONE time, and even then I had to bend my hand a bit to use it.

 

The weak jump shift in competition is also a rare bird, as it requires a weakish but SOLID suit and a very weak hand. Something like QJTxxxx x xxx xx for 1D (1H) 3S, or x KJTxxxxx xx xx for 1D (1S) 4H. If the suit is broken, you run the risk of going down on a situation where it's likely the points break 20-20. If the hand is any stronger, it's probably better to bid constructively. Actually, the WJS in competition works better playing strong club, since some of these requirements can be relaxed a bit. Still, in practice I played precision with WJS in comp in for 5 years and made the bid some... what.. 3 times?

 

So, for this reasons, I think bids like

 

1D (1S) 3C

1H (2C) 3D

 

are probably best used to show a type of hand that DOES show up a lot and which is hard to bid otherwise: the mixed raise. A 4-card defensive raise of 6-9 scattered points and mild defensive strenght.

[the hog]

It would be most unusual to have a hand worth a 4C bid which is willing to by pass 3N and which does not have support for partner. Without running a simulation I would suspect the fnj is more frequent.

 

Strong C hands can be bid by a X. If pd makes the worst bid possible for me - 4H, I would bid 5C. Sensitive partners will realise the possibility of the hand types I can hold and will strive to bid 3N with suitable holdings.

 

With 4H and a limited hand pd will bid 3H, over this I will bid 4C with the hand you describe Fluffy.

 

Incidentally as an aside, there is a not unreasonable argument for making 3H by pd forcing after a X. Are you contracting for exactly 9 tricks?

 

Whoops, just read Ben's last post. Great minds think alike??

[Free]

I bid 4♠. I don't see immediate slam possibilities, unless partner has a really good ♠ suit and some ACES! And with such hand, he'll go for it, that's for sure... No need to end up in a wrong contract because one of the players gets a bit confused imo.

[junyi_zhu]

Ditto Ben and Ron; 4♣ is FSNJ, although in theory I would like a 4th trump. Maybe the 6th club compensates.

You aren't a pased hand so is supposed that you play natural, it means:

Dbl= negative

3♥= forcing with hearts

3♠= simple raise, constructive

3NT= to play

4♣= forcing with clubs

4♦= good spade raise

4♥= to play, offensive hand (or FSJ if you like to play this way)

4♠= to play, offensive hand

 

Why should 4♣ by a unlimited hand be FNJ? Never heard of anybody that plays this way. In this scheme is 3♥ also a FNJ to 3♠ maybe? I presume I should dbl if I have GF with 6+♣ and no fit? Or not?... Makes no sense to me...

If you play thrumpt double(double asking for stopper), 4C should be treated as a fit showing bid which shows good clubs, because with club one suiter you can either bid 3NT with a stopper, double 3D without a stopper or bid 5C with a very distributional hand.

 

However, even if you play 4C as fit showing, you shouldn't bid 4C here, because this hand is defensive oritned, the control is bad, trump support is also bad. 4C should be reserved for some better hands, either very distributional or slam going.

[Flame]

It's all a matter of frequency, and actually both Rodwell and Robson have, in my perspective, got it wrong.

 

The Robson fit-bid is a very rare bird. I've been playing it for two years now and I made the bid exactly ONE time, and even then I had to bend my hand a bit to use it.

 

The weak jump shift in competition is also a rare bird, as it requires a weakish but SOLID suit and a very weak hand. Something like QJTxxxx x xxx xx for 1D (1H) 3S, or x KJTxxxxx xx xx for 1D (1S) 4H. If the suit is broken, you run the risk of going down on a situation where it's likely the points break 20-20. If the hand is any stronger, it's probably better to bid constructively. Actually, the WJS in competition works better playing strong club, since some of these requirements can be relaxed a bit. Still, in practice I played precision with WJS in comp in for 5 years and made the bid some... what.. 3 times?

 

So, for this reasons, I think bids like

 

1D (1S) 3C

1H (2C) 3D

 

are probably best used to show a type of hand that DOES show up a lot and which is hard to bid otherwise: the mixed raise. A 4-card defensive raise of 6-9 scattered points and mild defensive strenght.

My expirence wasnt too different from yours, and i felt i want to change it too, i wanted to change it to a more frequent hand, like a hand with a good suit but only minimal fit for partner, on these hands i know it might be better to play my long suit but support with support tell me to support when i can.

1SP (2C) 3H

xxx

KQJxxx

Kx

xx

Biding 3h here i dont mean partner i have a nice fit (4 card) and a hearts suit, and ask him to consider his move at the 4 level, what i mean is to give him a choice of trump.

The choice of trump hand come more, but the effectivness of the bid might be smaller.

Also i can tell you that it might be smarter to use a jump in suit as showing a fit instead of giving up the natural 2nt, true nat 2nt isnt very importent, but its still more importent then one of the jumps in suit.

[Chamaco]

The bid for me is 4♣'s. I am not going to bid 3♠ and languish in part-score. Nor am I going to bid 4♠ and imply a weaker hand.

 

4♣ is a FIT NON-JUMP that shows spade support, and values in clubs. It promises nothing more (it is not a slam try) unless I take some other action later. It is meant to help partner decide to defend or bid on against a 5♦ bid by them. If he has club singlton or void, he will defend, for instance.

I like FSJ-FNJ BUT:

 

FSJ-FNJ should promise concentration of values in the 2 suits and TENDS TO DENY SIDE SUIT VALUES (wastage), helping pard to high level decisions.

 

This is extremely important when using FSJ/FNJ.

 

Here is it i not so. We have quacks wasted in their suit, and stiff KQ in hearts and no values in spades: all these factors suggest good defense values.

On the other hand we have a great club suit.

But the wasted honors in the red suits strongly suggest against superoffensive tactics.

 

Overall, I think double is better. If pard bids something, I'll support spades later, showing I am not preempting.

 

Things would be TOTALLY different if I had 4 card support for pard.

In that case, it would be of utmost important to express immediately the fit for pard.

Planning a delayed 3-card support is not so bad if u have defensive values and wastage(e.g. do not fear preemptive action by opps); but when having a 9 card fit, it is more important to show immediately support because the preempt creates much more damage when u have a 9 card fit thn when a 8 card fit.

 

Of course, you may construct hands where pad is distributional and slam is cold whilst 5D goes 1 or 2 off doubled, but on balance, i the long run, I think such a wastage suggests against that

[inquiry]

My hand has seemed to change from the initial reply (I have gained a club, lost a diamond), no matter...

 

I want to address the "frequency" of the fit nonjump (and I guess fit jump) issue. Several people have hammered that "fit jump didn't occur very often". Well, that maybe true per se, but there are a lot of hands where you did NOT make a fit a jump and that conveyed just as much, and maybe even more important information.

 

When I make direct raises, they are not encouraging, because I have fit jumps and Fit nonjumps available. On this hand, Free said, "I bid 4♠. I don't see immediate slam possibilities, unless partner has a really good ♠ suit and some ACES! And with such hand, he'll go for it, that's for sure..."

 

And opposite THIS hand, his partner's decision to "go for it" with some aces would be a winner...but opposite many hands were 4♠ is bid preemptively based upon LOTT, say... S-JTxxx H-xx D-xx C-Kxxx, or whatever your minimum leap to 4♠ would be on, if your partner "goes for it" he will not be quite so happy. If you are going to be wild and wooly with your direct raises, you SIMPLY have to have a mechanism to separate the trash raises from the raises with real values.

 

Ben