MrAce Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 [hv=pc=n&s=sqt2h6daj9642caq4&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=1c3h]133|200[/hv] MP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 4♦ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 Dbl. Not perfect, but you can't have it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 Thrump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 Double is about the best I can think of. Partner playing a 4-3 spade fit opposite this dummy is probably o.k. Playing a 3-3 fit probably isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtvesuvius Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 Double for me. If partner bids spades, I am not terribly unhappy. If partner bids something else, I will be well placed on the next round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted July 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Those who DBL, what over 3♠ now ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Those who DBL, what over 3♠ now ? 4♥ - choice of games. 4♠ or 5m are all in play. Hopefully partner reads me for diamond length but probably not until the post mortem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Those who DBL, what over 3♠ now ?4♦. I've got to bid them some time. I hope partner thinks it's forcing. I think this route shows a flexibile hand, so we may still get to clubs or spades. The double has worked out well in that it gave partner a chance to limit his hand, so we can stop worring about slam possibilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 4♦. Definitely, and much better than 4H which leaves partner guessing even if the agreement is clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Dbl followed by 4♦, it's pretty clear what I have and leaves partner some choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jogs Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Those who DBL, what over 3♠ now ? I favor the super conservative follow up bid of 4♣.Partner is likely to have 5-4 in clubs/spades.He can bid again if he chooses. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 My preference would be an immediate overcall of 4♦, but double followed by 4♦ is not unreasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Definitely, and much better than 4H which leaves partner guessing even if the agreement is clear. I agree that 4♦ is better if understood as forcing, but it risks a serious disaster if it gets passed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 I'm not sure 4♦ is best... after all, while he can have 4324, it can also be he has 4315, no? And will he be brazen enough to bid 4♠ now? I'll just stick to the original plan and put pard in the moysian. 4♠. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 I thought this was a great problem, even before my fears were confirmed (sort of) by the apparent uncertainty, even amongst some of its proponents, about the meaning of 4♦ after partner responded to our double via 3♠. If we knew that 4♦ were forcing, this would, I think, be close to a wtp? it is possible that we might end up defending at mps, gathering only 500 for our game, but that's not likely....partner can see the vulnerability as well as we can. Otherwise, double is fine provided that we know what we are going to do over any response. I think we pass 3N, especially at mps. I think we make a slam try (4♥?) over 4♣. We have a problem over 4♠, but I think we afford a move. 3♠ is the real problem, unless 4♦ is forcing. For any who think logic dictates that this is forcing, what do you call, over 3♥, with some 3=1=6=3 10 count or hands of similar shape and strength? You may feel that you can't pass, since partner will often hold enough heart length to make balancing difficult, even if you managed to bid in tempo. The problem is so interesting that I have asked my current partner, without showing him the hand, whether 4♦ is forcing. I suggest that those who think it is, but who haven't expressly agreed in their partnerships that it is, do likewise. My concern is such that I stick with my original pedestrian, and flawed, 4♦ call over 3♥. it's not flawed in the sense of being misdescriptive....it is perfect in terms of description...the flaw is that it amy endplay partner in the auction. However, while I wouldn't take 4♥, over 3♠ as COG (to me it's a raise to 4♠ with slam interest), I would take 4♥ by opener over my immediate 4♦ as COG (for me, a choice of clubs or diamonds, I would think 4♠ by responder over this would be natural and forcing, but haven't discussed this with anyone). Anyway, good problem. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 'sup mike? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted July 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Of course one of the reasons that led some of us to start with DBL was the possibility of 3NT in MP scoring. It is hard to ignore 3NT in MP especially when our side is known to have no 8 cards major fit. Pd had KxxxQxxKxKJxx Preempter had JxAKJxxxx-xxx I bid 4♠ over pd's 3♠ since my pd was GIB and i cldnt afford to make any fancy bid to be honest. But as Mike said, i thought this could be a problem hand even for established pships. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 For any who think logic dictates that this is forcing, what do you call, over 3♥, with some 3=1=6=3 10 count or hands of similar shape and strength? You may feel that you can't pass, since partner will often hold enough heart length to make balancing difficult, even if you managed to bid in tempo. The problem is so interesting that I have asked my current partner, without showing him the hand, whether 4♦ is forcing. I suggest that those who think it is, but who haven't expressly agreed in their partnerships that it is, do likewise. I was a week ahead of you on this, because of this thread: http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/46897-how-do-we-proceed/ In that discussion, I blithely said that if I had a 4M-6m where I wanted to play in my four-card major, I would start with double. Then I realised that a corollary was that double followed by four of my minor would have to be forcing. So, I asked two serious partners what it means if you double a three-level jump overcall and then bid four of a minor. One of them hasn't replied. The other asked me what the people on BBF said it meant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 As for what I'd bid with a 3163 10-count: I'd probably still double and follow with 4♦, and live with its being forcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 I see an opportunity for a fight with mikeh: Double followed by 4D is logically forcing! I may have to explain the logic to my partner though. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I see an opportunity for a fight with mikeh: Double followed by 4D is logically forcing! I may have to explain the logic to my partner though. :(If I stay unlurked, it will be because I don't fight anymore. I may debate. I may even argue, but I won't fight....if I do...I'll be gone again. I really didn't like reading some of my old posts, and hope to never get back to that way of posting again:) And of course, I haven't actually expressed an opinion on whether double then 4♦ should, could, or shouldn't be forcing. I simply don't know, which is why I selected a different start rather than run the (forseeable) risk of having to guess how partner would read it. Life has taught me that if I don't know what I mean (whether bidding or in real life) the odds are that partner won't know what I mean either:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I think you should stay unlurked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Turning into a socratic lawyer, mike?? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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