Opener rebid

[Valardent]

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X promises ♥ (classic)

[the hog]

2C. That is why I opened 1D, isn't it?

[han]

1NT, partner should double with K10xx AJxx xx xxx.

[Free]

Agree with Hog

[han]

Why should we bid as if we have an unbalanced hand while we have a balanced hand? Partner most likely has exactly 4 hearts, and is quite likely to hold 4 spades because the 1S overcall was not raised. Given the 1S overcall on our left, wrongsiding notrump is not such a big danger.

 

If we bid 2C we risk playing in a silly 4-2 fit. We don't have to fear getting to 3NT without a stopper, partner also knows that this is the single most common auction to rebid 1NT without a stopper.

 

I don't think 2C is completely crazy btw, I'm just making a case for 1NT to go against the strong arguments raised by the Hog and Free.

[whereagles]

I'm ok with both 1NT or 2♣. Really not much difference between the two, even if dbl promises but 4 hearts.

[fromageGB]

I don't like 1NT. Partner's double promised hearts, I thought, not spades.

I don't like 2♣. That sound like my hand is unbalanced - but then I don't like the 1♦ open and prefer 1♣.

Partner's X shows hearts, so I bid 2♥. If he has 5 then all the better. If not, at least they are not going to run off the first 5 spade tricks, which could happen playing in 1NT.

[semeai]

I like 2♥, which I would also bid after 1♦ (P) 1♥ with an understanding partner.

 

1NT and 2♣ have merit too. Good problem.

[Hanoi5]

I'm not saying the '♠ were not raised' argument is wrong, or that we haven't got a balanced hand, but I think 1NT is a false statement about the spade stopper in our hand. 2♣ will only get us to play with the 4-2 when partner holds 1 diamond, in which case he has 10 cards in the Majors (not likely). 2♣ and let's wait to hear the 2♦ in front.

[Free]

Why should we bid as if we have an unbalanced hand while we have a balanced hand? Partner most likely has exactly 4 hearts, and is quite likely to hold 4 spades because the 1S overcall was not raised. Given the 1S overcall on our left, wrongsiding notrump is not such a big danger.

 

If we bid 2C we risk playing in a silly 4-2 fit. We don't have to fear getting to 3NT without a stopper, partner also knows that this is the single most common auction to rebid 1NT without a stopper.

 

I don't think 2C is completely crazy btw, I'm just making a case for 1NT to against the strong arguments raised by the Hog and Free.

You can just reverse the question and ask yourself why we should bid as if we have a ♠ stopper while we don't have one. But I must admit that the explanation of why you wouldn't need a stopper is definitely food for thought.

[Free]

2♣ will only get us to play with the 4-2 when partner holds 1 diamond, in which case he has 10 cards in the Majors (not likely).

Han didn't mention the contract of the 4-2 fit. Responder can have 2-2m and bid 2♦, in which case he'll have 9 cards in the Majors which is a bit more likely. And we'll even miss our 5-3 ♥ fit...

[whereagles]

fromage, I think pard will be quite puzzled watching the play in 4♥ if he happens to put you in game on 13 points and Jxxx of hearts... :rolleyes:

[mtvesuvius]

Generally I like rebidding 1N here, however I like to have at least some positional values -- Even Jx would be enough for me. I agree with Han that partner is a favorite to have spade length, but I think rebidding 1N on 2 small will still wrongside things often enough to not be worthwhile. I'd bid 2♣ here I think, although it's very close to a 1N call.

[Hanoi5]

Han didn't mention the contract of the 4-2 fit. Responder can have 2-2m and bid 2♦, in which case he'll have 9 cards in the Majors which is a bit more likely. And we'll even miss our 5-3 ♥ fit...

 

True. I thought of this and decided it would be a good idea to rebid 2♥ over 2♦, which should complete the description of our hand.

[mtvesuvius]

True. I thought of this and decided it would be a good idea to rebid 2♥ over 2♦, which should complete the description of our hand.

As a minimum balanced hand? Yes, of course, showing two suits and showing a fragment in the third always shows a minimum balanced hand.

[xxhong]

Both 1NT and 2C are OK. 1NT shows the shape and strength quite well and it usually has some plays. 2C should usually be based on 5D. 2H is also ok facing some certain hand types, but usually one should try to show his shape as accurately as possible IMO.

Still, I don't really think 1NT should promise any sort of stoppers because you really don't need a stopper to make 1NT. Later, there are many ways to show whether you hold a stopper. Also, you are usually quite well placed if partner holds invitational to gf values after 1NT.

It's usually like if you want to bid 1NT without 1S interference, you still want to bid 1NT with the 1S overcall.

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X promises ♥ (classic)

[MrAce]

fromage, I think pard will be quite puzzled watching the play in 4♥ if he happens to put you in game on 13 points and Jxxx of hearts... :rolleyes:

Usually a passed pd wont have 13 hcps and should not bid more than invitation. And even if he did by accident, holding Jxxx ♥, he will offer 3 NT at some point b4 he hopes up to 4♥, no ?

 

 

 

 

I am bidding 2♣ with this, i dont think responding a neg DBL in one of the pd's possible suits indicates unbalanced hand...This is very new to me. But on the other hand i would not mind my pd bidding 2♥ or 1NT with this.

[whereagles]

Pard was passed? Sorry didn't notice, but it think I makes little difference.

[han]

I don't like 2H. The auction is not the same as 1D - p - 1H because partner won't have 10+ points with 5+ hearts. As a passed hand partner can bid 2H lighter than that with a good suit.

 

I can live with all that Mtvesuvius wrote.

[the hog]

Why should we bid as if we have an unbalanced hand while we have a balanced hand? Partner most likely has exactly 4 hearts, and is quite likely to hold 4 spades because the 1S overcall was not raised. Given the 1S overcall on our left, wrongsiding notrump is not such a big danger.

 

If we bid 2C we risk playing in a silly 4-2 fit. We don't have to fear getting to 3NT without a stopper, partner also knows that this is the single most common auction to rebid 1NT without a stopper.

 

I don't think 2C is completely crazy btw, I'm just making a case for 1NT to go against the strong arguments raised by the Hog and Free.

 

Why should I lie to partner and say I have a H stopper when I haven't rather than show 2 suits that I do have and when 9/12s of my hand is in the 2 suits I bid? I am not saying 1NT is completely crazy, just making a case for 2C against the argument by Han. (The omission of an adjective was deliberate).

[whereagles]

Ron, 1NT is a very accurate bid w.r.t. strength and shape, whereas 2♣ is a slight distrotion on shape and somewhat ambigous on strength. Stoppers are not a big deal on this hand because it's just a 1 level contract and if pard wants to go further, he can cue 2♠ (to which you can now bid 3♣ showing your 4-4 with no spade stop to 100% accuracy ;)).

 

Not that I object to 2♣, but 1NT certainly is a good bid.

[Valardent]

This were the 4 hands :

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saqj82haq2dtcjt86&w=skt5hj763daj982c5&n=s763ht95d643ckq74&e=s94hk84dkq75ca932&d=w&v=e&b=16&a=pp1d1sdp2cp2sp3cp5dppp]399|300[/hv]

 

And this is the story behind it :

 

I was west and decided my hand was too good to bid 3♦ on 2♣ : the 5th ♦ and the ♠K10x is a very good holding facing east 2(3) expected spades (no ♠ support from north).

 

On 3♣, altough 5♦ is clearly a (pretty huge) overbid (p played it for 1 down), it never crossed my mind p's distribution could hv been based on a 44 minors. (Give p a below perfect minimum and 5♦ has some play xx x Kxxxx Axxxx)

 

I'm definitely on Han's argument side, I also think this topic could refer partly to this old debate :

 

Giving priority to shape/range or honnors/stoppers location?

 

IMO, at low levels, shape/range should have the edge.

 

 

Tx for the good comments made.

[whereagles]

Giving priority to shape/range or honnors/stoppers location?

 

Always. Shape and strength are way, WAAAY more important that tertiary factors like controls or stoppers. I keep telling this but people don't believe me.

 

Think of it like this: I open 1NT showing one of

 

a. stoppers in all suits

b. 15-17 and a balanced hand

 

In the first case you have no clue what opener has, except that he has some scattered values. In the second case responder can often place the contract at his 1st bid. The reason? Case b. conveys important information whereas case a. conveys next to nothing important...

[the hog]

Ron, 1NT is a very accurate bid w.r.t. strength and shape, whereas 2♣ is a slight distrotion on shape and somewhat ambigous on strength. Stoppers are not a big deal on this hand because it's just a 1 level contract and if pard wants to go further, he can cue 2♠ (to which you can now bid 3♣ showing your 4-4 with no spade stop to 100% accuracy ;)).

 

Not that I object to 2♣, but 1NT certainly is a good bid.

Nuno, I don't object to 1NT either. I think 2C is better though. What I do object to is the sarcastic attitude of Han, who has become increasingly objectionable. He is extremely arrogant but in my view has very little to be arrogant about.

[peachy]

Ron, 1NT is a very accurate bid w.r.t. strength and shape, whereas 2♣ is a slight distrotion on shape and somewhat ambigous on strength. Stoppers are not a big deal on this hand because it's just a 1 level contract and if pard wants to go further, he can cue 2♠ (to which you can now bid 3♣ showing your 4-4 with no spade stop to 100% accuracy ;)).

 

Not that I object to 2♣, but 1NT certainly is a good bid.

 

Why is 2C a distortion on shape? In SAYC it is standard/in the book, and in other systems at least in US, it is just a hair short of standard to open 1D with 4-4 minors where the hand is out of range for a NT opening.