Antrax Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 [hv=pc=n&s=saq8732haktd73ca9&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1sp2h(GF)p3hp4hp]133|200[/hv]Here lawrence advocates a 5♣ cue bid to try and figure out whether partner has a diamond control. His proposed auction continues 5♣-5♦-6♥. In the comments about 4NT, RKCB, he states "Oops, where's your diamond control?"What I don't understand is, we have 4 keycards. So, why is blackwood not adequate to finding partner's diamond ace? Is the purpose to try and get to slam opposite a shortness control in diamonds? For that partner would have to have all the remaining non-diamond honors to justify his game forcing bid AND diamond shortness AND opponents didn't bid diamonds despite holding 10 cards in diamonds with AKQJ distributed between them. What am I missing? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 The question is, if you bid blackwood what are you going to do if partner shows zero aces? You could easily still be cold for slam: ♠Kx♥QJxxxx♦KQJ♣xx So maybe you are bidding slam anyway if partner shows zero. But then, partner could also hold: ♠Kx♥QJxxxx♦Qx♣KJx By cuebidding, you can reach slam opposite the first hand when partner cuebids diamonds (despite the missing ace)... but you can also avoid slam opposite the second hand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mb_dunedin Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 Yeah, what awm said... The issue is that slam might be makeable when partner doesn't have the AD, but you won't know whether to bid it when you use Blackwood. In general, don't use Blackwood when you have two quick losers (a small doubleton or worse) in an unbid suit. Blackwood works fine when you discover all the key cards, but just leaves you guessing when one is missing. Unfortunately having got to 4H already, cue-ing may not help you locate the diamond king. If partner has both minor kings but only responds with first round controls, he/she will rebid 5H over your first cue-bid, and you are still left with a guess. It's worth discussing with partner how you cue-bid, particularly where you're at the 5-level already. Btw, does everyone agree with Lawrence that you should cue-bid 5C here? Is that better than 4S? Is the message "I'm looking for slam and have bypassed my own suit, hence I must have the ace of that one..." But then how would you bid with AD and AC but only Q-high in spades? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunnyGo Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 One other thing to keep in mind is that you can use this on defense when playing against better players. If one of them makes a blackwood bid, you can count on them not having a suit without a second round control. In particular, they will not have xx of a suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 Here partner is going to declare so the king is good enough. Hopefully he will realize that and cue the king. If we had a singleton diamonds so not interested in the king we would have splintered and/or used blackwood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 Btw, does everyone agree with Lawrence that you should cue-bid 5C here? Is that better than 4S? Is the message "I'm looking for slam and have bypassed my own suit, hence I must have the ace of that one..." But then how would you bid with AD and AC but only Q-high in spades? I suppose the idea is that you don't want partner accidentally cuebidding his ♣K or something. But I have no idea how to bid the latter hand in this style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antrax Posted July 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 How can I use that on defense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flem72 Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 The biggest problem in 2/1 is that many sequences are unlimited. Major raise sequences are the most critical, whether responder (or opener) supports at the two or the three level. With the example hands offered by awm, I'd hope my partners, as opener, would bid 3S to show the SK. So with the first: 1♠-2♥3♥-3♠4♣-4♦6♥ and with the second 1♠-2♥3♥-3♠4♣-4♥P Note that you don't have to be playing Serious/Frivilous to courtesy cue when partner may hae a much bigger hand than appears from the "sound" of the auction. Regards and Happy Trails, Scott NeedhamBoulder, Colorado, USA 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vuroth Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 The real question seems to be when should partner show a second level control after 3 ♥ and when shouldn't he? I certainly would have expected to hear 1st/2nd round cues over 3♥. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wank Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 yes the points is you will endplay yourself in the bidding by trying 4♠ - partner will bid 5♣ with both minor suit kings and you'll be rogered. by bidding 5♣ you make it easy to partner to cue 5♦. note he's already shown a minimumish hand by not making a try over 3♥ so he should appreciate you have a very good hand, and endeavour to cooperate, when you push on to the 5-level regardless. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antrax Posted July 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 wank, if the bidding goes 4♠-5♣, 5♥, won't partner figure out I'm missing a diamond control and raise with one? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunnyGo Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 How can I use that on defense? I had to defend a slam once in an open pairs event, and I had to guess whether declarer had started with two small in a suit or a singleton (and partner's signal was not helpful). Since he had bid blackwood I could trust that he didn't have two small in any suit, and should have known he had a singleton. After I got this wrong at the table and hung my head about it, the declarer very kindly taught me this lesson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TylerE Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 Guideline on hands like this: If you need all 5 KCs to bid *6*, you should't be bidding any sort of Ace ask, because your REAL problem is secondary tricks, not controls. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Hi, Of course the question is, why did p bid 4H, what does it mean? So before discussing, if it is sensible or not to use 4NT with thegiven hand or bid on the 5 Level, I would suggest to have a discussion,if responder could have bid something else. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antrax Posted July 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 I interpret 4♥ to say he's not interested in slam, so a balanced minimum GF. Of course, looking at a trump suit that's QJ9xx at best, he could fear being in slam even looking at the ace of diamonds and the king of spades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 I interpret 4♥ to say he's not interested in slam, so a balanced minimum GF. Of course, looking at a trump suit that's QJ9xx at best, he could fear being in slam even looking at the ace of diamonds and the king of spades.3H was unlimited, maybe even showing SI, so responder should make a cue.Of course also responder needs to start limiting his hand, ..., you mayhave a look at (non)serious 3NT, which allowes to make cues that show add. values / nothing to add. But even without this agreement, I suggest making the cue. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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