jules101 Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 [hv=pc=n&s=saj862hq87dqt62c2&n=shaj9432dkj8ckj84&d=w&v=e&b=16&a=p1h2s(Weak%20but%20not%20suicidal%20when%20vuln%20opposite%20passed%20pard)p(Asks%20and%20passes)pdppp]266|200[/hv] WJOs are generally 6-9/10ish, but likely to be max when vulnerable opposite a passed partner. Do you sanction reopening X after South's "ask and pass"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 It depends whether by "sanction" you mean "approve" or "penalize". :D I suppose the argument is that the "ask and pass" conveys the UI that South has some spades, and maybe it does. But does it suggest doubling over something else? I don't think, for North in this auction, pass is an LA to X. Looking at the hand, I considered (and rejected) 3♣ and 3♥, and I think most players would do so, although admittedly I don't know who North's peers are. But I would consult with other TDs and with this player's peers, if possible. If bidding is an LA to doubling, and the UI suggests doubling, then I would consider adjusting the score after the hand. I would not suggest to North that he can't make some particular call (or set of calls) but if called to the table at the time of South's actions due to disagreement about whether UI may have been transmitted, I would rule that some UI may well have been transmitted by the "ask and pass", and that if that UI suggests any particular action to North, if he takes that action when he has a LA, and the opponents are damaged thereby, I will adjust the score. I will mention, and may read if it seems necessary, Law 73C's admonition that he be careful to take no advantage from the UI. I'm certainly not going to tell North that the "I" in "UI" is that his partner probably has spades — he needs to work that out for himself, not have the TD compound his problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Why would he ask? He has no need to know based on his hand. So, the only thing the question could do would be to convey UI, and he "could have known" that. There are always logical alternatives to opener reopening with a double holding a minimum and a void, and if there are, DBL is certainly suggested by the ask and pass. 2NT showing 6-4 in two suits, and Pass come to mind, and I don't think opener was careful at all about using the UI. This doesn't change or dispute what Blackshoe said, but it would be an application of what he said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmcw Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 I'm not passing the North hand. The only question is whether to bid 3♣,3♥ or DBL. In spite on the void and the ask and pass I would DBL. Now, as to the ask and pass by South. I really don't know how a director would rule or should rule on this...it certainly complicates matters.It would not surprise me if some South's immediately raised to 3♥ or even 4♥,foregoing the possibility of converting a re-opening X. If I were North on this deal I would be quite upset with my partner and would definitely explain the difficult position partner's query had placed me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pran Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Naughty, naughty. If 2♠ is set I would adjust to undoubled unless a poll gave nobody passes with North's hand. (With my own agreements pass by South suggests that North doubles 2♠ in this position) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontd Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Naughty, naughty. If 2♠ is set I would adjust to undoubled unless a poll gave nobody passes with North's hand. I would be amazed if anyone passed with North's hand. The tougher question is whether anyone bids (rather than doubles) with North's hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oof Arted Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 :blink: mmmm what happens if N/S play 'Mandatory' re-opening doubles ??????? ;) Do you just have to grin and bear your stupid partner for asking then passing Or could you shoot them legally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulg Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Given that natural jump overcalls are not alertable, whatever the strength, in Scotland, and that intermediate jump overcalls are more popular than in some other countries, I don't think the question gives any significant UI. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Did this happen in Scotland, then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wank Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 in future, before making a sarky response perhaps you should reread the original post and title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 It was a legitimate question. I don't recall seeing "Scotland" on the OP, although it's certainly there now. I won't apologize to you, Wank, because you don't deserve it, but I will apologize to Jules101 and Paulg for having missed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jallerton Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Given that natural jump overcalls are not alertable, whatever the strength, in Scotland, and that intermediate jump overcalls are more popular than in some other countries, I don't think the question gives any significant UI. I don't see the logic in that argument. More important is whether players in Scotland (and in particular, this player) normally ask about the strength of jump overcalls whenever they are made, whatever the contents of their own hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluejak Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 There are always logical alternatives to opener reopening with a double holding a minimum and a void, and ...There are? :ph34r: mmmm what happens if N/S play 'Mandatory' re-opening doubles ??????? ;) Do you just have to grin and bear your stupid partner for asking then passing Or could you shoot them legallyNo, you write it on your System card. Then the double is perfectly permissible since there are no LAs to double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Why would he ask? He has no need to know based on his hand. So, the only thing the question could do would be to convey UI, and he "could have known" that. There are always logical alternatives to opener reopening with a double holding a minimum and a void, and if there are, DBL is certainly suggested by the ask and pass. 2NT showing 6-4 in two suits, and Pass come to mind, and I don't think opener was careful at all about using the UI. This doesn't change or dispute what Blackshoe said, but it would be an application of what he said.Minimum, seriously, this is a good king above a minimum opening bid for many people. I think X is completely routine here. It's not completely clear that 2♠x has to be going for more than 4♥ would net you (which is where you're going to end up if N bids instead of doubling), although it's probably 500. Pass is not a LA. I can just about visualise a situation where S might nead to ask if the partnership's agreement is that a reopening double requires a more than minimum opening bid, and if the jump overcall was strong or intermediate, he might decide there's a good chance partner doesn't have one so he'll raise hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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