Dealer misbid, and pass?

[jules101]

[hv=pc=n&s=sth742dkqt982cj76&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=2d(GF%2C%20alerted%20by%20N)p(Asks)2h(Relay)pp]133|200[/hv]

 

Basic systems are pre announced.

 

NS state they play Benjamised Acol, so 2♣ is 8-playing tricks (or some NT strength), and 2♦ is considered GF (usually 9+ PT, and even bigger NT).

 

1st board (15 secs after pre annoucement) - South opens a weak 2♦ presumably forgetting they are playing Benji.

 

North alerts, West asks (perhaps slightly bemused given their hand). North explains "It's our biggest bid", and West passes.

 

North bids 2♥. This is a relay over 2♦ awaiting developments. It does not necessarily show a bust, but denies a 5-card suit with HHxxx (min).

 

South passes - having been woken up to their OWN misbid by partner's alert and explanation.

 

 

 

If you are called to the table now what next?

 

 

Do you sanction pass by South?

 

Or do you review their methods over weak 2s in the majors?

 

For example if say 2♥ [P] 2♠ is F1, would the same apply here?

 

 

Over to you....!

[blackshoe]

Suppose that NS play "raise only non-force" over their weak twos, or that South plays that with other partners. In that case, for South, 2♥ is forcing. Does that mean he has to bid something? Well, maybe. He has UI, the "I" being that his partner thinks he has a good hand. He doesn't. The "I" suggests, to me at least, that he get out as soon as possible, i.e., that he pass, in an attempt to minimize the damage. What alternatives does he have? If he thinks 2♥ shows a suit and is forcing, he should probably bid 3♥. So if 2♥ gets passed out, and EW are damaged (3♥, or 3♥X, would result in a better score for them) I would adjust. The precise adjustment depends on the jurisdiction and all four hands.

[Cascade]

Suppose that NS play "raise only non-force" over their weak twos, or that South plays that with other partners. In that case, for South, 2♥ is forcing. Does that mean he has to bid something? Well, maybe. He has UI, the "I" being that his partner thinks he has a good hand. He doesn't. The "I" suggests, to me at least, that he get out as soon as possible, i.e., that he pass, in an attempt to minimize the damage. What alternatives does he have? If he thinks 2♥ shows a suit and is forcing, he should probably bid 3♥. So if 2♥ gets passed out, and EW are damaged (3♥, or 3♥X, would result in a better score for them) I would adjust. The precise adjustment depends on the jurisdiction and all four hands.

 

If he raises to 3♥ then without UI I would bet dollars to donuts that 3♥ will not be the final contract and therefore not the correct ruling.

[blackshoe]

Maybe not. The actual adjustment, if there is one, would depend on the TD's judgment of the possible final contracts had he raised hearts.

[paulg]

For the question as asked, don't you just tell them to continue and call you back if there is a problem? You cannot do anything about South in the middle of the auction.

 

Assuming you are called back later, you'd have to do a poll of South's peers to find out whether pass is a logical alternative. I'm pretty sure the better players would expect 2♥ to be constructive at worst, so most if not all of them would raise to 3♥. More difficult with the average Scot, pass may well be a LA now.

 

If I did this to my partner I would splinter with 3♠ rather than pass. I doubt the opponents would need the Director back after this.

[jallerton]

For the question as asked, don't you just tell them to continue and call you back if there is a problem? You cannot do anything about South in the middle of the auction.

 

Assuming you are called back later, you'd have to do a poll of South's peers to find out whether pass is a logical alternative. I'm pretty sure the better players would expect 2♥ to be constructive at worst, so most if not all of them would raise to 3♥. More difficult with the average Scot, pass may well be a LA now.

 

It's not so relevant whether Pass is a logical alternative. The question for the TD to determine is whether there is any logical alternative other than Pass.

 

If I did this to my partner I would splinter with 3♠ rather than pass. I doubt the opponents would need the Director back after this.

 

You might splinter if 2♥ was natural and forcing, but surely not if 2♥ was merely constructive. We'd need to find out what Opener thought the repsonses to the Weak 2♦ were at the moment when she opened 2♦.

[paulg]

If I did this to my partner I would splinter with 3♠ rather than pass. I doubt the opponents would need the Director back after this.

You might splinter if 2♥ was natural and forcing, but surely not if 2♥ was merely constructive.

If we played a weak two diamonds, which we never have, then I'm sure that 2M would be F1. As it happens the pair in question play new suits as forcing over a weak two in a major, according to their convention card, and I guess it is for the TD to decide whether this is relevant.

[mrdct]

Usually what they play 2♥:2♠ as would be important, and you should probably still ask the question, but here South has such a clearcut ♥ raise it's hardly relevant. This hand is quite similar to an appeal I recently chaired.

 

I adjust to whatever unambigously non-forcing bid either of North and South get to after it goes 2♦:2♥:3♥.

 

What was the North hand?

 

What does a 3♥ response to the 2♥ relay show?

 

What is North likely to do next?

[jules101]

[hv=pc=n&s=sth742dkqt982cj76&w=sa954hak63da4ct53&n=sj876hjt98d6cakq2&e=skq32hq5dj753c984&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=2d(9+%20tricks%2C%20GF)p(asks)2h(relay)ppp]399|300[/hv]

 

South opened weak 2♦ (forgetting they are playing 2♦ as GF). They play change of suit after 2♥/♠ as F1.

 

 

So if South had not been woken up to his misbid by his partner's alert/explanation one would imagine South would raise partner's ♥ with 3 card support and a singleton.

 

If auction returns to North as...

 

[hv=d=s&v=e&b=3&a=2dp2hp3hp]133|100[/hv]

 

... then North who is playing Benji (as per system card), South is now showing a 9+ trick hand, with 5+ card ♥ suit....

 

With a singleton, good 4-card support, and AKQ in a secondary suit, one might expect them to end up rather higher than 4♥?

 

 

PS You can see why West was a tad surprised by the "GF" opening bid in front of her when she's holding AAAK!

[paulg]

I'd adjust to 6NT-X, down six or seven. As they play a new suit as forcing over a weak two, I think South could splinter and this will set North on the road to grand, but will discover they are missing a key-card - it will never occur to North that they are missing four key-cards. South will correct 6♠ to 6NT as spades is clearly not possible after a two hearts response.

[jules101]

Ha - what larks Paul.

 

So from North's perspective the auction will go something like....

 

 

[hv=d=s&v=e&b=3&a=2d(GF)p2h(relay)p3s(sets%20suit%2C%20asks%20pard%20to%20cue%20or%20sign%20off%20in%204S)p4c(cue)p4h(%22cue%22)p4n(RKCB%2030/41)p5c(must%20be%203%21%20)p5d(asks%20QS)p5h(to%20play%20from%20South%2C%20but%20North%20thinks%20QS%2C%20and%20KH)p6s(to%20play%20%3A%5D)p6n(yikes%21)dppp]133|100[/hv]

[paulg]

Ha - what larks Paul.

 

So from North's perspective the auction will go something like....

 

[hv=d=s&v=e&b=3&a=2d(GF)p2h(relay)p3s(sets%20suit%2C%20asks%20pard%20to%20cue%20or%20sign%20off%20in%204S)p4c(cue)p4h(%22cue%22)p4n(RKCB%2030/41)p5c(must%20be%203%21%20)p5d(asks%20QS)p5h(to%20play%20from%20South%2C%20but%20North%20thinks%20QS%2C%20and%20KH)p6s(to%20play%20%3A%5D)p6n(yikes%21)dppp]133|100[/hv]

Yes, you just needed to call the Director, appeal the likely ruling, and then ask for the Laws & Ethics Committee to examine its decision and you would have eventually reached the stage that I might have been consulted.

 

BTW I don't think there would have been a queen ask in the auction when partner has jumped to 3♠ and you have four-card support.