12-14 pt NT

[jmcw]

I play 12-14 with 1 partner of modest bridge ability. (he is uncomfortable with strong)

 

He insists on rebidding 2NT over a 1NT response with 15/17 and 3NT with 18/19 when a minor OR Major is opened, I do not like this and would hearitly support the other posters who suggest rebidding the better minor over a forcing NT.

 

Some would say playing a weak NT has the beneficial effect of pre=empting the opponents. I think this is a false claim! It may be true in some cases, but, it is also true that when opening 1 minor with 15/17 points the opponents can just as easily overcall because the hand was NOT opened a strong NT. So a net push IMO

 

Additionally, I would never agree to play weak NT unless a solid agreement is in place to handle interference. I would reccommend modified SWINE or a DONT variation.

[Gerben42]

What many people don't realize is that playing weak NT affects your whole system, for example the maximum values for auctions like

1♣ - 1NT. Playing strong NT, this sequence says: "Pass if you have a weak NT" (i.e. could be an average 10-count). Playing weak NT, it says: If I would be GF vs a strong NT, I would bid something else (i.e. denies a good 9-count).

 

The whole system is full of such inferences.

[peachy]

It is equally important to make sure you have actions defined when they Dbl or interfere with your weak NT opening. Don't switch until you have adequately discussed the possible, and quite common, sequences with partner. This includes runouts, whether to run out immediately or via forced Rdbl by opener; what later round doubles mean, etc. Adopting weak NT also affects other auctions, for example 1m-1H-2H tends to show stronger hand than when playing strong NT, and many other situations.

 

However, if you adopt it, agree to open all balanced/ish hands that fit the range, in 1NT, including those with 5-card major. Otherwise your auctions become a guessing game.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

We switched from 15-17 to 12-14, and we do play a 2/1 system. Works ok.

 

Just to answer the original question

 

#1 we switched to a widerange 1NT rebid, the rebid now showes 15-19,

so the rebid is basically forcing, ..., responder is allowed to pass,

if he responded on dead min. hands.

This imples of course, that you also need to replace the NMF after the

1 NT rebid with something more sophisticated.

This also freed up the 2NT repid by opener for other purposes.

 

#2 Assume, that you dont like to open 1NT with a 5 card major?

What is your rebid with 15-17 bal. and a 5 card major? Most make a rebid

in a minor suit, ..., this basically leads to an art. 2C rebid by opener,

if you go the complete way.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[phil_20686]

I cannot understand how wknt+5cM must be inferior to 5cM strng NT because of the extra redundancy. If you do not open a wknt with 5M, then you ahve redundancy, as you need to be able to show a wk nt hand after 1h-1s. If you just go rebidding two hearts you have two major problems, one this auciton no longer shows 6 hearts, and two you will often be in inferior 5-1 fits when the field can rebid 1N. If you rebid 1N as wk nt, then its hard to see what to do with a strong NT and say a 2-5-3-3 shape, you have to start playing artificial 2m opening to sort this out, and will often play in 2N with a strong NT opposite a 5 count for example.

 

How will you bid 5-1-3-4 opposite 2-5-3-3 when opener (the 2533 hand) is 15-17, and when he is 12-14?

[Flem72]

How will you bid 5-1-3-4 opposite 2-5-3-3 when opener (the 2533 hand) is 15-17, and when he is 12-14?

 

Kaplan Inversion (a/k/a Kaplan Interchange) helps. (Note to ACBL Conventions Committee: Make it GCC!!!!!) But -- for purposes of this exercise-- whether the 1NT rebid shows 15-17 or 12-14 after 1H-1S, how big is your 5-1-3-4?

 

My tendency has always been to open 5M hands 1WNT when the hand looks NTy, which usually means the suit is poor, and I'm more likely to open a 5H hand 1NT. If the suit is avg+, open 1M and rebid it. Ever notice that 1H-1S auctions create problems for many different systems, and that folks tend to gloss them over?

 

Regards and Happy Trails,

 

Scott Needham

Boulder, Colorado, USA

[phil_20686]

Kaplan Inversion (a/k/a Kaplan Interchange) helps. (Note to ACBL Conventions Committee: Make it GCC!!!!!) But -- for purposes of this exercise-- whether the 1NT rebid shows 15-17 or 12-14 after 1H-1S, how big is your 5-1-3-4?

 

My tendency has always been to open 5M hands 1WNT when the hand looks NTy, which usually means the suit is poor, and I'm more likely to open a 5H hand 1NT. If the suit is avg+, open 1M and rebid it. Ever notice that 1H-1S auctions create problems for many different systems, and that folks tend to gloss them over?

 

Regards and Happy Trails,

 

Scott Needham

Boulder, Colorado, USA

 

You always need some sophisication on these auctions, but 5cM wkNT is just overloading them further when they are already crowded. I'm confident it must be inferior. However, nearly all such effects are small in the scheme of things.

[Zelandakh]

One option to workaround (some of) these problems is to play 1M as unbalanced and to open 1C on all balanced hands outside of NT range. This arguably works best within a strong or multi-way club system but can be adapted for natural systems too. There was also a thread mentioning this approach on these forums recently.

[aguahombre]

One option to workaround (some of) these problems is to play 1M as unbalanced and to open 1C on all balanced hands outside of NT range.

And the balanced 5-3-3-2 hands within the NT range would pass?

[mgoetze]

And the balanced 5-3-3-2 hands within the NT range would pass?

 

No.

[Zelandakh]

And the balanced 5-3-3-2 hands within the NT range would pass?

Do you find it difficult to produce a NT response structure that caters to 5M332 hands?

[aguahombre]

No, I find it difficult to find an opening bid with 5-3-3-2 and 13 HCP if, as you proposed within a weak NT style:

 

1M is an unbalanced hand, and

1C is opened on all balanced hands OUTSIDE the NT range

[mgoetze]

No, I find it difficult to find an opening bid with 5-3-3-2 and 13 HCP if, as you proposed within a weak NT style:

 

1M is an unbalanced hand, and

1C is opened on all balanced hands OUTSIDE the NT range

 

We'll give you 3 guesses. Pass is wrong so you've got 2 guesses left.

[the hog]

No, I find it difficult to find an opening bid with 5-3-3-2 and 13 HCP if, as you proposed within a weak NT style:

 

1M is an unbalanced hand, and

1C is opened on all balanced hands OUTSIDE the NT range

 

Rather than trying to decipher the sarcastic response by mgoezte, look at some of the Swedish systems, where a 1C opening includes a 5332 shape, quite possibly with a 5 card Major.

In Magic Diamond for example,1C is 12-16 unbalanced including 5332 with a major or 15-17 NT.

Similarly in Swan 1C is two-way with 11-13 BAL. 5-c M possible if it is weak or the hand is MIN with notrump values or 17+, any distribution.

[Zelandakh]

What mgoetze was trying to say is that with 13hcp and 5332 shape it is blindingly obfvious in the style suggested to open 1NT when played as 12-14. Agua is too good a player not to know this so I assume he was also being sarcastic here, or at the very least obtuse. The Swedish club systems that the hog is pointing to are similar but with a stronger NT since the weak NT is contained within the 1C opening. You can also open a 14-16 NT with 5332 shape and 15hcp believe it or not! :o

[rhm]

I think 12-14 NT and 5-card majors are a strong combination. The reason is that in this case, a 1m opening bid either shows 15+ or a real suit (5 cards or 4441). This is a powerful inference.

What is so powerful about this compared to what strong notrumper's infere:

 

1m opening either shows 12-14 or 18+ or a real suit (5 cards or 4441)

 

Rainer Herrmann

[mgoetze]

What is so powerful about this compared to what strong notrumper's infere:

 

1m opening either shows 12-14 or 18+ or a real suit (5 cards or 4441)

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

If you have either some shape or 15+, then you will have a nice surprise one way or the other for partner when your cards come down on the table. When partner competes just to find you had 12 flat, he will be less happy. And so on.

[Vampyr]

What is so powerful about this compared to what strong notrumper's infere:

 

1m opening either shows 12-14 or 18+ or a real suit (5 cards or 4441)

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

The difference is that when the auction becomes competitive, the weak notrumper's partner knows that his partner has either a real suit or extra values for his minor opening. The strong notrumper's partner knows that his partner could have a short suit in a weak notrump hand, so is not able to compete as freely.

[jillybean]

I am joining this thread 10 years late but I think it contains a lot of good discussion and I think we have touched on this in other threads.

 

I am hearing a number of queries from good players here in NZ who believe you can't play 2/1 with a weak nt.

Has anything changed, or have we learned any more?

[Stephen Tu]

I am hearing a number of queries from good players here in NZ who believe you can't play 2/1 with a weak nt.

 

What rationale do they give, or do they not give one.

 

Some very good pairs have had success playing weak nt and 2/1 (or 2/1 GF not 100% of the time but a lot of the time). E.g. Martel-Stansby back in the day when they were still partners.

 

[helene_t]

If you play a natural 5533 system with a 12-14 NT, you might not want the auction

1♦-2♣

to be a game force. Since the 1NT response is limited to a modest 9 (opener will pass with 16), playing the 2♣ response as gf would mean that (9)-10-11-(12) hands would have to make some kind of jump response.

 

So I think that if you want to play 2/1 with a weak NT, you either

- don't apply the 2/1 principle to the 1♦ opening

- play the 2♦ raise as semi-inverted, something like 9-11 with 2+ diamonds

- open 1♣ with all balanced 15-16 hands without a 5-card major

- play some artificial responses to the 1♦ opening, maybe reversing 1♥ and 1NT or something like that

- just accept that the non-1M responses to 1♦ are a weak spot in the system

 

As for the responses to the 1M opening, the notrump range doesn't have to matter, as plenty of pairs don't open 1NT with a 5card major anyway.

[jillybean]

If you play a natural 5533 system with a 12-14 NT, you might not want the auction

1♦-2♣

to be a game force. Since the 1NT response is limited to a modest 9 (opener will pass with 16), playing the 2♣ response as gf would mean that (9)-10-11-(12) hands would have to make some kind of jump response.

 

So I think that if you want to play 2/1 with a weak NT, you either

- don't apply the 2/1 principle to the 1♦ opening

- play the 2♦ raise as semi-inverted, something like 9-11 with 2+ diamonds

- open 1♣ with all balanced 15-16 hands without a 5-card major

- play some artificial responses to the 1♦ opening, maybe reversing 1♥ and 1NT or something like that

- just accept that the non-1M responses to 1♦ are a weak spot in the system

 

As for the responses to the 1M opening, the notrump range doesn't have to matter, as plenty of pairs don't open 1NT with a 5card major anyway.

Hi Helene, thanks. You have given me many good points to consider.

What is a 5533 system, 5 card major and best minor?

[nullve]

What is a 5533 system, 5 card major and best minor?

Yes, because the 1♠, 1♥, 1♦ and 1♣ openings promise 5+, 5+, 3+ and 3+ cards, respectively.

 

Another example is standard 2/1, where 1♦ can be 3c only if 4=4=3=2.

[DavidKok]

I think Scott's approach for handling 1♦-2♣ (post #17 in this thread) looks very solid. I imagine 2♣ is GF unless responder rebids 3♦ (or some artificial call indicating the weak club-diamond version). Or you could even play that a 2♦ rebid by opener shows any minimum, so responder can pass.

 

5533 system is usually either better minor or "open longer minor, with equal length 1♣ if 3-3, 1♦ if 4-4 (or longer). Begrudgingly open 1♦ on 4=4=3=2 (only shape where 1♦ does not contain 4+)".

[mycroft]

I don't know, I've only played it for 20 years. If it's unworkable, it's less unworkable than my declarer and defence play.

 

Sure, it's harder to play 1♦-2♣ GF, but 20 years ago that would have been surprising to the point of oddity in Strong NT, 2/1 circles (about then, 1♠-2♥ had given up the fight and was now GF commonly).

 

Sure, you have to have agreements about 1m-p-1M-(bid), and they're not as easy as with a strong NT, but they exist.

 

Sure, 1♥-1NT(F1) is not as comfortable (as long as you open 1NT with "all" 5M332s in your NT range), but Kaplan Interchange exists where it's legal.

 

But competitive auctions in general (sure, exceptions, see above) when we open 1m are more comfortable than when they open 1NT (or 1m, for that matter). 1NT is a pretty good preempt, too. Swings and roundabouts.