12-14 pt NT

[jillybean]

What rationale do they give, or do they not give one.

 

Some very good pairs have had success playing weak nt and 2/1 (or 2/1 GF not 100% of the time but a lot of the time). E.g. Martel-Stansby back in the day when they were still partners.

I haven't had the chance to discuss their rationale, hopefully I will during this teams series we are in.

[helene_t]

 

Sure, 1♥-1NT(F1) is not as comfortable (as long as you open 1NT with "all" 5M332s in your NT range)

In a way it is more comfortable as responder can safely raise 2m on 4card support. The Flannery hands will have to pass 1nt then.

[Douglas43]

(I normally play Acol, weak NT)

I would suggest that in pairs, weak NT is better. It gains on frequency, successful doubles are rare. If you mostly play teams, strong NT is better because it needs a lot of small gains to make up for the rare -800. Even in the UK, the top team-of 4 players use strong NT.

As others have said, KS and Flint-Pender used strong NT and 5cM with forcing no-trump response. Personally I'm not a huge fan because I don't like prepared minors, but chacun a son gout and all that.

One other advantage of weak NT - you can forget Smolen!

[Gilithin]

I am hearing a number of queries from good players here in NZ who believe you can't play 2/1 with a weak nt.

You can (and some pairs do) but I am convinced that 14-16 is significantly better if you want to retain a natural framework.

[helene_t]

I find it a bit strange that 5-weak has so little following, since it seems to me to be the best combo.

 

- 5-strong has the dilemma whether to play Walsh or not. And the high frequency of nebulous minor suit openings make the system toothless, and vulnerable to interference. Besides, responder can't safely raise opener's 2m rebid after a forcing 1NT unless they have 5-card support

 

- 4-strong makes a nonforcing 2NT-rebid after a 2/1 to be 12-14, so we play 2NT with 14+11 but 3NT with 12+12. Yes there are solutions but the cure seems worse than the disease.

 

- 4-weak makes you play 1M in 4-1 fits when opps can't make game, and you really don't want to hold a 15-17 balanced hand when partner responds 1NT to your 1M opening. And 2/1 auctions become inaccurate because we can have a misfitting combined 21-count so lots of bids have to nonforcing.

[mikeh]

I find it a bit strange that 5-weak has so little following, since it seems to me to be the best combo.

 

- 5-strong has the dilemma whether to play Walsh or not. And the high frequency of nebulous minor suit openings make the system toothless, and vulnerable to interference. Besides, responder can't safely raise opener's 2m rebid after a forcing 1NT unless they have 5-card support

 

- 4-strong makes a nonforcing 2NT-rebid after a 2/1 to be 12-14, so we play 2NT with 14+11 but 3NT with 12+12. Yes there are solutions but the cure seems worse than the disease.

 

- 4-weak makes you play 1M in 4-1 fits when opps can't make game, and you really don't want to hold a 15-17 balanced hand when partner responds 1NT to your 1M opening. And 2/1 auctions become inaccurate because we can have a misfitting combined 21-count so lots of bids have to nonforcing.

5 strong works well, as far as I’m concerned. As with any basic method, one has to spend some time and memory work to bid effectively.

 

T-Walsh is a powerful method. Bart works reasonably well after 1M 1N 2C, especially if you use both 2D and 2H artificially. Meanwhile, it’s common to play 1M 1N 2D as 4+, making it ok to raise diamonds on 4 card support.

 

Also, playing 1C as 2+ and 1D as 4+ makes 1C nebulous but 1D simple.

[AL78]

Yes, because the 1♠, 1♥, 1♦ and 1♣ openings promise 5+, 5+, 3+ and 3+ cards, respectively.

 

Another example is standard 2/1, where 1♦ can be 3c only if 4=4=3=2.

 

Or as one of my partners plays, 5542. One pair at my club plays 5551.

[pescetom]

Or as one of my partners plays, 5542. One pair at my club plays 5551.

Playing 5cM in Europe, I think 5542 (with occasional 5551) is pretty much standard nowadays. Southern Europe (but not France) basically bypassed 5533 and went straight from 4444 to 5542.

[TMorris]

I find it a bit strange that 5-weak has so little following, since it seems to me to be the best combo.

 

- 5-strong has the dilemma whether to play Walsh or not. And the high frequency of nebulous minor suit openings make the system toothless, and vulnerable to interference. Besides, responder can't safely raise opener's 2m rebid after a forcing 1NT unless they have 5-card support

 

- 4-strong makes a nonforcing 2NT-rebid after a 2/1 to be 12-14, so we play 2NT with 14+11 but 3NT with 12+12. Yes there are solutions but the cure seems worse than the disease.

 

- 4-weak makes you play 1M in 4-1 fits when opps can't make game, and you really don't want to hold a 15-17 balanced hand when partner responds 1NT to your 1M opening. And 2/1 auctions become inaccurate because we can have a misfitting combined 21-count so lots of bids have to nonforcing.

 

I think you are most likely right. I play 4 and weak but like many in this area nowadays I open the minor with a (4432) hand so am in fact very close to playing 5 and weak. I resisted this for some time but it works ok and being able to raise the monir knowing it is a real suit has some advantages. When one sees a strong & 5 person opening 1nt on a 13 count with a broken 6 card minor one wonders exactly what "disclosure" is really about.

[Douglas43]

I play 12-14 with 1 partner of modest bridge ability. (he is uncomfortable with strong)

 

He insists on rebidding 2NT over a 1NT response with 15/17 and 3NT with 18/19 when a minor OR Major is opened, I do not like this and would hearitly support the other posters who suggest rebidding the better minor over a forcing NT.

 

Some would say playing a weak NT has the beneficial effect of pre=empting the opponents. I think this is a false claim! It may be true in some cases, but, it is also true that when opening 1 minor with 15/17 points the opponents can just as easily overcall because the hand was NOT opened a strong NT. So a net push IMO

 

Additionally, I would never agree to play weak NT unless a solid agreement is in place to handle interference. I would reccommend modified SWINE or a DONT variation.

 

I would expect to raise a 1NT response to 2NT with a 17 -18 count and bid 3NT with 19.

 

Yes, an agreement on escaping when doubled is useful. Most Acol players use some form of wriggle. (Personally I like escape transfers but they are not theoretically very good). It's also useful to play takeout doubles over opposing overcalls.

 

As to 5-3-3-2 with the 5 card suit in a major, practice amongst Acol players splits three ways. Some always open 1NT, some only when the suit is poor, soem always open the suit. I'm in the middle group

[Gilithin]

As to 5-3-3-2 with the 5 card suit in a major, practice amongst Acol players splits three ways. Some always open 1NT, some only when the suit is poor, some always open the suit. I'm in the middle group

There are other groups too: open 1NT with 5♥ but 1♠ with 5♠; open 1M with (35)(32) but 1NT with (25)33; open 1NT with (25)33 and 1M with any other 5M holding; or open 1♠ with 53(32) and 1NT with any other balanced 5M holding. There are probably also a few others around, particularly when you get into variations of suit quality rather than just distribution.

[helene_t]

I play 12-14 with 1 partner of modest bridge ability. (he is uncomfortable with strong)

 

He insists on rebidding 2NT over a 1NT response with 15/17 and 3NT with 18/19 when a minor OR Major is opened, I do not like this and would hearitly support the other posters who suggest rebidding the better minor over a forcing NT.

Yeah, if you want to play forcing 1NT responses you need to be comfortable with treating 5332 in first instance as a 2-suiter. For that reason you can't play forcing 1NT in response to a minor suit. I suppose you could play a short club system where 1♦-1NT is forcing but what's the point? The 1NT response is quite descriptive (with the negative inference from not making a 3♣ WJS or IJS), so opener is in a good position to pass 1NT.

 

It is a disadvantage of WNT5cM that with 5M332 and 15-16 points, when it starts

1M-1NT

2m-2M

you pass with 15 and bid 2NT with 16. You'd rather have opened 1NT in the first place. But those who play French Standard or similar (where 1NT is 15-17 but denies a 5-card major) have the same problem.

[Douglas43]

There are other groups too: open 1NT with 5♥ but 1♠ with 5♠; open 1M with (35)(32) but 1NT with (25)33; open 1NT with (25)33 and 1M with any other 5M holding; or open 1♠ with 53(32) and 1NT with any other balanced 5M holding. There are probably also a few others around, particularly when you get into variations of suit quality rather than just distribution.

 

Good point Glithin, thanks. I forgot to mention the Hearts / Spades aspect.