1 club 3 clubs how many pts?

[dickiegera]

Partner opens 1♣ I bid 1♠

Partner bids 3♣

How many points does this show?

 

I say 15-17 Partner thinks 18-19

 

Opinions please

Thank You

[matmat]

first of all, it shows a good suit. I wouldn't pigeonhole the point count here. If someone did threaten to twist my arm I'd probably say it's 16-18. I think 19s would force to game, some 18s might, most 15s would have an alternate path bidding sequence, possibly involving some NT openings or rebids.

[whereagles]

It shows an above-average hand. In some systems it will be a medium one, on others a maximum and in others still a med or max. Min/med/max = 11-14/15-17/18-20 or equivalent in distribution.

[mtvesuvius]

first of all, it shows a good suit. I wouldn't pigeonhole the point count here. If someone did threaten to twist my arm I'd probably say it's 16-18. I think 19s would force to game, some 18s might, most 15s would have an alternate path bidding sequence, possibly involving some NT openings or rebids.

Agree with the Mat of all matts.

[the hog]

In principle 15-16. However this depends on the length of the C suit and other factors. There is a very nice 14 count in another thread, on whih I think 3c is obvious. (Did that hand prompt this thread?)

[han]

Certainly not 19 and rarely less than 13. With xx x Axx AKQ10xxx I'd bid certainly bid 3C.

[phil_20686]

15-18 typical. Some fourteens. One should have a way to bid a 3cc hand that is "too strong" for 3c. Popular around here is either 1c-1Y-3N or 1c-1Y-2N=GF with several options.

[paulg]

15-18 typical. Some fourteens. One should have a way to bid a 3cc hand that is "too strong" for 3c. Popular around here is either 1c-1Y-3N or 1c-1Y-2N=GF with several options.

It is fairly easy to play 1♣-1M-2♦ as either a reverse or very strong 3♣ rebid. For example,

 

1♣-1♥-2♦

2♥ = natural, 5+ hearts, FG

2♠ = Lebensohl (weak hands - 2NT weak reverse, 3♣=natural, 3♦=strong reverse, 3♥=1345, inv, 3♠=1345, fg)

2NT = relay (3♣/♦ natural, 3♥=3-card support, 3♠=fragment)

3♣ = natural, FG

3♦ = 4-card diamonds support, FG (over which 3NT/4♣ shows single suiter)

[Antrax]

Yeah, extremely easy.

[matmat]

Yeah, extremely easy.

Heh. I suspect what he means is that it is a rarely used sequence that is not overloaded, so it is not difficult to add it to a pre-existing system.

[peachy]

Counting HCP is not very helpful for the type of hand that bids 3C. It is better than average hand with a long, good club suit. Since 3C is non-forcing, your poll choice of 18-19 cannot apply.

[mike777]

As this thread shows a Jump rebid in a minor can be quite wide ranging. Call it one of the weaknesses of standard or 2/1 bidding.

 

Fwiw to take out some of the hands and make the bid a bit more limited I prefer to have shortness. that means I may rebid 2nt, open 1nt or Mexican 2D offshape with no stiff or void.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

It is fairly easy to play 1♣-1M-2♦ as either a reverse or very strong 3♣ rebid. For example,

 

1♣-1♥-2♦

2♥ = natural, 5+ hearts, FG

2♠ = Lebensohl (weak hands - 2NT weak reverse, 3♣=natural, 3♦=strong reverse, 3♥=1345, inv, 3♠=1345, fg)

2NT = relay (3♣/♦ natural, 3♥=3-card support, 3♠=fragment)

3♣ = natural, FG

3♦ = 4-card diamonds support, FG (over which 3NT/4♣ shows single suiter)

This may be the "kiss of death"... but I like it.

 

It is the only "artificial reverse" auction needed because of a 1C open.

The 1D/1H/1S openers have jump-shift rebids available ( and " may be artificial" ) to make a game force.

 

Anthrax may not find your system easy, but it isn't that difficult.

[paulg]

Yeah, extremely easy.

It is often difficult to gauge the audience in the B/I forum as it is so diverse and I did appreciate the dangers of putting a lot of artificiality into my response. In a sense this was why I included the follow ups as it would have been easy to leave it as an exercise for the reader. But I've already done the work and I'm quite happy to share it, but I also thought it was useful to show that you do need to work through the follow ups whenever you adopt artificiality instead of natural bidding.

 

At least everyone can look at it and decide whether it is worth the investment.

 

But first of all I would certainly say that you should consider how you continue auctions after a natural reverse, such as 1C-1S-2D or 1C-1H-2D.

[Antrax]

I have no doubt the system is probably good. It's just that I personally find it much easier to remember and understand systems that have less "artificiality" in them. I don't know if I'm an average B/I or not, but the current set of responses makes no sense to me. It seems logical to bid NT over a reverse if you can stop the fourth suit and don't have good support for either of partner's suits (since you'd be looking for a game in notrump), show preference for partner's suits etc. In your system, I don't understand the correlation between bids and what they do. I also have some specific questions (why is 2♥ forcing to game?), but again, I suspect all of them have good answers, so I was commenting that it seems difficult to remember.

[VM1973]

Assuming you would open:

 

♠xx

♥xx

♦Axx

♣AQJxxx (rule of 20) and presumably rebid 2♣

 

then an extra King somewhere should make it worth a 3♣ bid.

 

And if you hold...

 

♠x

♥Kxx

♦Axx

♣AKQJxx

 

then the auction would probably go 1♣-P-1♠-P-3NT

 

I've never played reserve to diamonds as a special uber-strong club suit so I can't speak for that.

[the hog]

It is fairly easy to play 1♣-1M-2♦ as either a reverse or very strong 3♣ rebid. For example,

 

1♣-1♥-2♦

2♥ = natural, 5+ hearts, FG

2♠ = Lebensohl (weak hands - 2NT weak reverse, 3♣=natural, 3♦=strong reverse, 3♥=1345, inv, 3♠=1345, fg)

2NT = relay (3♣/♦ natural, 3♥=3-card support, 3♠=fragment)

3♣ = natural, FG

3♦ = 4-card diamonds support, FG (over which 3NT/4♣ shows single suiter)

 

Antrax, I would suggest this is the rationale behind the bids. Paul can confirm.

 

2H gf - pd has shown very good Cs or both ms. He may have 1/2/3 Hs. 2H keeps the bidding low and helps you to investigate the best game.Shows about 9+hcp

2S - Leb. I will assume you know leb. This allows you to bail out in 3C/D/H if partner has less than a gf hand

2NT relay - probably only 4H or 5 bad, but allows you to investigate

3C/D these should be obvious

[Antrax]

Well, to the best of my knowledge rebidding your suit after a reverse is not forcing to game - it shows 6+ cards in the suit with some unknown strength, right? So that's one missing I don't understand how to get to. The other thing that seems confusing is the inability to get to NT if it's the right spot. Again, I don't want to criticize the system because I'm sure it works, but when I look at this construct I see a mess which is much more confusing to me than the standard approach to reverses.

And btw, 3♣ isn't really obvious to me. If I have something like ♠xxx ♥Kxxx ♦xx ♣Qxxx I'm not sure which game I want to force to when I bid 3♣ (or shouldn't I have responded 1♥?)

[the hog]

Well, to the best of my knowledge rebidding your suit after a reverse is not forcing to game - it shows 6+ cards in the suit with some unknown strength, right? So that's one missing I don't understand how to get to. The other thing that seems confusing is the inability to get to NT if it's the right spot. Again, I don't want to criticize the system because I'm sure it works, but when I look at this construct I see a mess which is much more confusing to me than the standard approach to reverses.

And btw, 3♣ isn't really obvious to me. If I have something like ♠xxx ♥Kxxx ♦xx ♣Qxxx I'm not sure which game I want to force to when I bid 3♣ (or shouldn't I have responded 1♥?)

 

When you have an idea of what partner has, then you will have a good idea of where to set the game contract, or perhaps even the part score.

The reverser can have anywhere from 15 to 20 odd. If he has long Cs or a minimum reverse, you would want to play in some number of Cs with your example hand,

♠xxx ♥Kxxx ♦xx ♣Qxxx correct? Hence you need to have a way of signing off in 3C and you do this via the 2S lebensohl structure - partner bids 2NT and you bid 3C to play or he bids 3C and you can pass. If you have a better hand with C support you just bid 3C forcing and pd can show a stopper for 3NT.

For what it is worth, a lot of players don't know how to bid over reverses. Mikeh has a good pinned primer on them.

[Antrax]

Maybe I missed something. I want to sign off in 3♣, so I bid 2♠. Now opener bids something other than 2NT or 3♣, is 4♣ a signoff? How do I bid on when I have no stopper to show and don't want to go past 3NT?

(and yeah, I read the primer, it's inconsistent with the system proposed here)

[paulg]

You can choose what you want responder's rebid of his suit to mean, it is not essential that it is game-forcing as I use. However it is useful to have a call that shows, or implies, that you have a game-forcing hand with 5-card suit. My partnership feels that the value in showing a weak hand with a 5-card heart suit is limited, but this is influenced by the rest of our system (in particular, weak jump shifts over 1m opener).

 

If partner fails to make the Lebensohl transfer, then he is showing extra values and is essentially game forcing. Continuations follow general principles from this point. For example,

 

1♣ - 1♥

2♦ - 2♠ (weak hands)

3♥

 

Partner has shown something like a strong 1=3=4=5 hand. 4♣ would now show a weak hand without five hearts, essentially any weak hand without a viable spade stop opposite a singleton.

[helene_t]

Assuming you would open:

 

♠xx

♥xx

♦Axx

♣AQJxxx (rule of 20) and presumably rebid 2♣

 

then an extra King somewhere should make it worth a 3♣ bid.

 

No, partner can still invite over a 2♣ rebid so you are allowed to have extras. With a king, or even and ace more than a minimum, just rebid 2♣.

[the hog]

You can choose what you want responder's rebid of his suit to mean, it is not essential that it is game-forcing as I use. However it is useful to have a call that shows, or implies, that you have a game-forcing hand with 5-card suit. My partnership feels that the value in showing a weak hand with a 5-card heart suit is limited, but this is influenced by the rest of our system (in particular, weak jump shifts over 1m opener).

 

If partner fails to make the Lebensohl transfer, then he is showing extra values and is essentially game forcing. Continuations follow general principles from this point. For example,

 

1♣ - 1♥

2♦ - 2♠ (weak hands)

3♥

 

Partner has shown something like a strong 1=3=4=5 hand. 4♣ would now show a weak hand without five hearts, essentially any weak hand without a viable spade stop opposite a singleton.

 

By the way Paul, I think this structure is excellent. Did you design it?

[paulg]

By the way Paul, I think this structure is excellent. Did you design it?

No. We added it to the system in June 2005 but I do not recall the impetus for it. I expect one of us saw the basic idea somewhere, perhaps on these forums, Bridge World article, Challenge the Champs, a pair's convention card or on BBO vugraph. The idea of using the cheaper of fourth suit forcing and 2NT to show weak hands over a reverse is nothing new, so we really only fleshed out the idea to make it workable.