Man or Mouse?

[jillybean]

I have always played Soloway style SJS and even after changing from SAYC to 2/1 I still play them, and like them.

We use SJS M/m and S/H.

 

I'm interested to know how others are playing it and if there is a better use.

 

tyia

[BunnyGo]

I play reverse flannery for M/m. What it is:

 

1m-2H is 5+Sp and 4+ He and constructive values

1m-2S is 5+Sp 4+He and limit raise

1m-1S; blah-2H is now game forcing with 5+ Sp and 4+ He.

 

I don't do anything fancy with 1H-2S. Just a weak jump shift.

 

We do play:

 

P-1H

2S

as an anonymous splinter. Maybe we should play it that way in all seats...

 

 

Edit: Like Timo, I play support jump shift by passed hand for every jump except 1H-2S (and 1H-2NT is our spade jump shift).

Edited June 28, 2011 by BunnyGo

[jillybean]

I play reverse flannery for M/m. What it is:

 

1m-2H is 5+Sp and 4+ He and constructive values

1m-2S is 5+Sp 4+He and limit raise

1m-1S; blah-2H is now game forcing with 5+ Sp and 4+ He.

 

I don't do anything fancy with 1H-2S. Just a weak jump shift.

 

We do play:

 

P-1H

2S

as an anonymous splinter. Maybe we should play it that way in all seats...

 

The F word!

[BunnyGo]

The F word!

 

Why don't you like this convention?

[MrAce]

I have always played Solway style SJS and even after changing from SAYC to 2/1 I still play them, and like them.

We use SJS M/m and S/H.

 

I'm interested to know how others are playing it and if there is a better use.

 

tyia

 

By unpassed hand I play 9-11 6 cards invitational hands Kathryn. It not only comes frequent, but also helps when it doesnt come in other auctions knowing pd had the availibity to use it but didnt. As well as takes some weight on standart invitation bids. Not a fancy way i know but, easy to remember and easy to judge when used by any level of player.

 

By passed hand i play it "support jump shift"

[the hog]

I used to play Bergen raises and then I analysed the results I and others achieved with them in comparison to not using them. There was no advantage whatsoever. So we went back to strong jump shifts, not as strong as Soloway JS, but about a minimum of about 15+ with a very good 6 card suit, or alternatively a very good 5 card suit together with Hxx (+) support for partner's opened suit. This has made slam bidding and also game bidding far easier.

 

I have a lot of time for intermediate js, particularly in the minors, (about 9-11 with a good 6 carder). I did play this for a while with a Polish partner who played it as part of Strefa.

[mgoetze]

By unpassed hand I play 9-11 6 cards invitational hands Kathryn. It not only comes frequent, but also helps when it doesnt come in other auctions knowing pd had the availibity to use it but didnt.

 

Especially when playing 2/1, you get these hands out of 1NT, which you can then play as semiforcing.

[Free]

The F word!

It's "reverse F", so that doesn't count :P

 

I also like reverse flannery, although I play the weak version only:

1m-2♥ = 5-9HCP, 5+♠, 4+♥

1m-2♠ = 5+-9HCP, 5+m (1m-3m is 0-5 with support)

 

This way opener can find out about min/max and shortness in responder's hand,... with a 2NT relay. It's more useful than the INV 5+♠ 4+♥ imo.

[BunnyGo]

It's "reverse F", so that doesn't count :P

 

I also like reverse flannery, although I play the weak version only:

1m-2♥ = 5-9HCP, 5+♠, 4+♥

1m-2♠ = 5+-9HCP, 5+m (1m-3m is 0-5 with support)

 

This way opener can find out about min/max and shortness in responder's hand,... with a 2NT relay. It's more useful than the INV 5+♠ 4+♥ imo.

 

interesting treatment. What do you do with INV? bid 1S and then some NMF (or NMF-like) bid?

[Free]

interesting treatment. What do you do with INV? bid 1S and then some NMF (or NMF-like) bid?

We start with 1♠. Usually partner rebids 1NT after which we play XYZ (and have 2 ways of inviting: good INV via 2♣ or bad INV immediately). Partner supports on a 3 card ♠ regularly, after which we can still find the 4-4 ♥ fit. And if opener rebids his minor, the 2♥ rebid as INV+ and forcing for 1 round. Works ok.

[gwnn]

(edit: almost) Completely agree with BunnyGo! Reverse Flannery is a very good convention opposite 1m! BTW jillybean, fred is one of the most outspoken supporters of it.

 

edit: sorry but I don't like 1♥-2♠ WJS and I really don't like anonymous splinter :( 1♥-2♠ as IJS is better.

[jillybean]

Why don't you like this convention?

 

Sorry. It's not the convention it's the F word that has such a bad rep, especially on forums. We will look at this.

 

 

By unpassed hand I play 9-11 6 cards invitational hands Kathryn. It not only comes frequent, but also helps when it doesnt come in other auctions knowing pd had the availibity to use it but didnt. As well as takes some weight on standart invitation bids. Not a fancy way i know but, easy to remember and easy to judge when used by any level of player.

 

By passed hand i play it "support jump shift"

 

Thanks, I like the sounds of this and having these hands out of the 1N response.

 

 

I used to play Bergen raises and then I analysed the results I and others achieved with them in comparison to not using them. There was no advantage whatsoever. So we went back to strong jump shifts, not as strong as Soloway JS, but about a minimum of about 15+ with a very good 6 card suit, or alternatively a very good 5 card suit together with Hxx (+) support for partner's opened suit. This has made slam bidding and also game bidding far easier.

 

I have a lot of time for intermediate js, particularly in the minors, (about 9-11 with a good 6 carder). I did play this for a while with a Polish partner who played it as part of Strefa.

We still play Bergen since we can use 2m/1M to force game, our SJS is only M/m and S/H.

What do you use instead, a natural 1M:3M ?

[han]

Reverse Flannery does not have a bad reputation on the forums. I thought mike777 was the only regular forum poster that still played Bergen raises. I play invitational jump shifts.

 

I like the idea of playing 1H - 2S as 5-9 so that 1H - 1S - 2red-2S can be used as an artificial GF, but I have never played this.

[mike777]

Ya I play full bergen.

 

Also:

1m=2h=reverse flannery.

1m=2s=invitational in minor(crisscross)

1m=jump in other minor gf(crisscross)

1h=2s=stiff somewhere;2nt asks;about a 7 loser hand;

1h=3s=void somewhere;3nt asks, etc.

1s=3h=stiff or void somewhere;3s asks;etc.

----

 

that throws a lot of the invitational hands into sf 1nt that others use as inv j/s. So far this is seldom an issue at the table and of course if pard is a passed hand then 1M=2minor does not become an issue. Also if LHO overcalls then 2/1 with an invite hand becomes less of an issue.

[Phil]

Always invitational at the 3 level.

 

Reverse Flannery and invitational JS's at the 2 level both have their wins, but since the Reverse Flannery is an 'impossible hand' to show sometimes, that's my preference.

 

I scratch my head at people that like SJS over majors playing 2/1.

[jillybean]

 

I scratch my head at people that like SJS playing over majors playing 2/1.

We only play 1♥:2♠ as a SJS, I like being able to show this hand with one bid.

Having said that, it's not needed now that we play xyz, I think the only auction that causes trouble is 1♥:1♠ 2♥.

[Zelandakh]

Over 1M I prefer all jump shifts to show support (good hands can relay or 2/1 depending on system). Over 1D (and 1C if natural) I prefer weak jump shifts. For me, even if SJS are seen as a necessity (why, especially playing 2/1 or relays, is a mystery), devoting 3 bids to them is a luxury. It seems a no-brainer to use the lowest jump shift as a general strong jump shift (which can be resolved) and use the other 2 for something else.

[BunnyGo]

(edit: almost) Completely agree with BunnyGo! Reverse Flannery is a very good convention opposite 1m! BTW jillybean, fred is one of the most outspoken supporters of it.

 

edit: sorry but I don't like 1♥-2♠ WJS and I really don't like anonymous splinter :( 1♥-2♠ as IJS is better.

 

Yes, my new partner is having me play 2S as invitational.

[the hog]

Sorry. It's not the convention it's the F word that has such a bad rep, especially on forums. We will look at this.

 

 

 

 

Thanks, I like the sounds of this and having these hands out of the 1N response.

 

 

 

We still play Bergen since we can use 2m/1M to force game, our SJS is only M/m and S/H.

What do you use instead, a natural 1M:3M ?

 

1M 2NT = invit+

Don't really know of many people who play Bergen these days, and even fewer who really know it.

[jillybean]

1M 2NT = invit+

Don't really know of many people who play Bergen these days, and even fewer who really know it.

Funny, most players at the club here play Bergen but now that I think about it, maybe not the really good players.

 

How does 1M 2N invit+ work. Is 1M:2N 3x:3M inviational?

 

I've just discovered my partner plays Reverse Flannery with some of his other partners, so we could play..

 

RF or IJS (unpassed hand) and

Fit jump (passed hand) and

1M:2C* clubs, balanced gf, or 4M gf and

1M:2N inv+

 

Is that correct?

[jillybean]

The F word!

 

 

It's "reverse F", so that doesn't count :P

 

I think it would be better called Yrennalf.

[Flameous]

In natural set up, I play weak jumps, but quite wide ranging comparing to most. Something like 3-8. This means that my rebid of a suit is good 8-11 and I still have bids for 12-13 point invites that might want to play there if partner holds stiff or something.

Over 1♣ I've also played 2♦ multi and 2♥/♠ as reverse flannery.

 

Over our unbal 1♦ opening we have 2♣ as multibid that may include wjs in either major, constructive diamond support or hand that can play 3♣ but is weak. 2♥ is 8-11 with both majors either way at least 54. Sort of less defined reverse flannery bid. 2♠ for us shows 5♥+4+♣.

But these are very specifically designed for our system so I doubt you do much with them.

 

3lvl bids I have always conventional, so no any jumpshifts there.

[the hog]

Funny, most players at the club here play Bergen but now that I think about it, maybe not the really good players.

 

How does 1M 2N invit+ work. Is 1M:2N 3x:3M inviational?

 

I've just discovered my partner plays Reverse Flannery with some of his other partners, so we could play..

 

RF or IJS (unpassed hand) and

Fit jump (passed hand) and

1M:2C* clubs, balanced gf, or 4M gf and

1M:2N inv+

 

Is that correct?

 

Do they know the continuations to Bergen, Kathryn? I bet they don't.

1M 2NT

3M = s/off against a min

3? = long suit trial now 4M = accept, 3M = I had a limit raise and am not enamoured by your trial suit.

Other bids by responder show different gf hands eg 3N = 16/17 raise, bid at the 4 level in a new suit = 14-16 splinter.

[jillybean]

Do they know the continuations to Bergen, Kathryn? I bet they don't.

1M 2NT

3M = s/off against a min

3? = long suit trial now 4M = accept, 3M = I had a limit raise and am not enamoured by your trial suit.

Other bids by responder show different gf hands eg 3N = 16/17 raise, bid at the 4 level in a new suit = 14-16 splinter.

Hi, Ron. Sorry, we play reverse Bergen so responder is telling not asking. I don't know how much better this is than std Bergen.

 

Where can I find the full follow ups to Inv+ J2N? I've found this so far.. http://www.kolumbus.fi/memmu1/piv/bridge/fem.pdf

[mike777]

Do they know the continuations to Bergen, Kathryn? I bet they don't.

1M 2NT

3M = s/off against a min

3? = long suit trial now 4M = accept, 3M = I had a limit raise and am not enamoured by your trial suit.

Other bids by responder show different gf hands eg 3N = 16/17 raise, bid at the 4 level in a new suit = 14-16 splinter.

 

 

HOg makes an excellent point even if his facts are off a bit.

 

 

His main point know bergen in full...etc....excellent pt

 

 

btw I dont play his version if it exists of bergen...

 

It iss hard to defend bergen if we cannot even agree what it is.

 

----------------------------

\

 

 

in any point the huge point of bergen is LOTT.

 

If you think LOTT is junk science then no reason to play bergen

--------------

 

otoh if you think bergen really helps you on comp hands...ok......