Stop Card regulations

[bluejak]

Of course I did not mean the ACBL, where the Stop card regulations are all but ignored.

[mycroft]

I'm surprised that David hasn't already put up the link: WeaSeL over Preemption. It works, and everybody knows somebody who plays it - "unintentionally", of course.

 

How many people have seen 4th seat invariably guess right after the auctions:

• 3♥-p-p
  
• 3♥-X-p
  
• 3♥-3♠-p
  

with a borderline balance/game hand? And how often does second hand "pause consistently" (whether the pause is zero seconds or 10) in pairs where 4th seat is so brilliant?

 

Yeah, me too.

 

David - if you Google the words "weasel over preempts" (without the quotes), you will find there are at least two sites that have stolen the article without attribution; you may wish to provide education.

[bluejak]

Such is life.

 

But I have changed the site many years ago, but cannot get the old one out of the search engines!

 

So the real link is Weasel over Pre-empts.

[kenberg]

I enthusiastically endorse stop cards.

 

If rho opens 1♦ and I bid 2♠, lho may well need a bit of time. Or he may not. The skip bid warning has him waiting the same ten seconds whether he needs it or not. This allows us to all go on with the game, bidding our values, without having to call the director and raise ugly questions.

 

Do I always use it? Well, the auction 1NT-pass-3NT was mentioned and it is true I don't usually bother. Same with 1♠-2♠-4♠. In theory this could be an issue, in practice it isn't.

 

True, skip bid warnings are not always heeded. How I deal with this depends on the setting. At, say, a regional tournament I expect rules to be followed. At the local club where the lho is a casual player who has trouble following suit, I may well let it slide.

[pran]

I enthusiastically endorse stop cards.

 

If rho opens 1♦ and I bid 2♠, lho may well need a bit of time. Or he may not. The skip bid warning has him waiting the same ten seconds whether he needs it or not. This allows us to all go on with the game, bidding our values, without having to call the director and raise ugly questions.

 

Do I always use it? Well, the auction 1NT-pass-3NT was mentioned and it is true I don't usually bother. Same with 1♠-2♠-4♠. In theory this could be an issue, in practice it isn't.

 

True, skip bid warnings are not always heeded. How I deal with this depends on the setting. At, say, a regional tournament I expect rules to be followed. At the local club where the lho is a casual player who has trouble following suit, I may well let it slide.

I agree. But remember that the STOP procedure protects the skip bidder's side. If the 3NT or 4♠ bidder in your examples fails to use STOP then his side will not have any case if next player delays his pass (or other call) for up to approximately 10 seconds.

[blackshoe]

I agree. But remember that the STOP procedure protects the skip bidder's side. If the 3NT or 4♠ bidder in your examples fails to use STOP then his side will not have any case if next player delays his pass (or other call) for up to approximately 10 seconds.

 

Why should the skip bidder's side "have a case" if the next player complies with the regulation, whether or not they've used the stop procedure?

 

Put it another way: if the skip bidder's LHO doesn't pause about 10 seconds, his side has no protection from the laws and regulations, because he didn't follow them. In the ACBL this is true whether the stop card was used or not.

[pran]

Why should the skip bidder's side "have a case" if the next player complies with the regulation, whether or not they've used the stop procedure?

 

Put it another way: if the skip bidder's LHO doesn't pause about 10 seconds, his side has no protection from the laws and regulations, because he didn't follow them. In the ACBL this is true whether the stop card was used or not.

True,

and that is one reason why I didn't like the ACBL regulation when I learned about it. In Norway (and several other countries) LHO is protected if he calls without (extra) pause as soon as the STOP card is retracted (or word like "continue" is spoken), but he is also protected if he spends up to approximately 10 seconds in any situation where STOP is required whether or not correct STOP procedure was followed by the skip bidder.

 

The purpose of STOP is to legitimate BIT (pause) for players in situations where they naturally might need extra time to decide their call. Consequently it seems more reasonable to place the burden of measuring out this extra time on the skip bidder who has nothing else to worry about at the time rather that on LHO who needs the time to consider his call.

 

My first question when called to a table because of hesitation in situations where STOP is required is if STOP had been used. If not I nearly always automatically dismiss the complaint unless the hesitation was indeed excessive.

[blackshoe]

The position in which I find myself as a player who makes a skip bid is most often that LHO bids quickly. I rarely bother to do anything, because trying to get agreement there was a bit is usually futile, and even if we get damaged the TDs seldom adjust the score. Frankly, I don't think giving my LHOs "protection" when they do this, just because I picked up the stop card, is the right way to go. OTOH, if the regulation puts me in charge of LHO's tempo, it won't be a problem, because that stop card ain't coming up before ten seconds have passed. ;)

[pran]

The position in which I find myself as a player who makes a skip bid is most often that LHO bids quickly. I rarely bother to do anything, because trying to get agreement there was a bit is usually futile, and even if we get damaged the TDs seldom adjust the score. Frankly, I don't think giving my LHOs "protection" when they do this, just because I picked up the stop card, is the right way to go. OTOH, if the regulation puts me in charge of LHO's tempo, it won't be a problem, because that stop card ain't coming up before ten seconds have passed. ;)

I am not quite sure if I understand you here, but let me sum up our regulation:

 

When STOP is required with a call the player making such call is responsible for declaring a stop period of 10 seconds. He does so by exposing the STOP card or saying "STOP", and marks the end of the stop period by taking back the STOP card or saying "continue" (or words to that effect).

 

His LHO may not call during this stop period but is supposed to call as soon as the stop period ends. However, if the stop period is shorter than 10 seconds then he is free to make his call at any time after the end of the stop period and before 10 seconds have elapsed. (If no stop period has been declared although required then LHO is free to call at any time within 10 seconds.)

 

I'd say that this regulation works very well with us.

[blackshoe]

Yes, I understand your regulation, Sven. Ours here is different. In other jurisdictions it may be something else again. We are not going to get the same regulation everywhere, nor (probably) should we strive for that (sorry, Nigel). I get a sense, though, that North Americans are unlike Norwegians in that it seems there's a lot more "I don't care what the regulation says, I'll do what I want" here. Given that attitude, I don't suppose it really matters what the regulation says. :ph34r: <_<

[pran]

Yes, I understand your regulation, Sven. Ours here is different. In other jurisdictions it may be something else again. We are not going to get the same regulation everywhere, nor (probably) should we strive for that (sorry, Nigel). I get a sense, though, that North Americans are unlike Norwegians in that it seems there's a lot more "I don't care what the regulation says, I'll do what I want" here. Given that attitude, I don't suppose it really matters what the regulation says. :ph34r: <_<

If that attitude prevails I sure agree with you, but at the same time I feel sorry for you. :unsure:

[Vampyr]

North Americans are unlike Norwegians in that it seems there's a lot more "I don't care what the regulation says, I'll do what I want" here. Given that attitude, I don't suppose it really matters what the regulation says. :ph34r: <_<

 

Enforcement?

[blackshoe]

Enforcement how? It wouldn't occur to a club level TD to issue a PP for failure to provide a claim statement - they just don't issue PPs. A tournament TD might consider it, but the law says "should", so he almost certainly wouldn't do it. As for other situations, I suppose it depends on the situation, and the TD.

[pran]

Enforcement how? It wouldn't occur to a club level TD to issue a PP for failure to provide a claim statement - they just don't issue PPs. A tournament TD might consider it, but the law says "should", so he almost certainly wouldn't do it. As for omeasurement of the delay is left to LHO.ther situations, I suppose it depends on the situation, and the TD.

I have been thinking. . . . .

With your regulation I believe the only time I would rule rectification because of failure to comply with your STOP regulation is when the skip bidder flashes the stop card (or says "STOP") and his LHO (demonstrably) calls without any pause at all. (When the skip bidder fails to flash (or say) STOP I would not adjust even on an immediate call from LHO.)

 

PPs are definitely out of question (at least when I rule in such cases), and so are rectifications whenever LHO has at least some delay before calling. We all know that 10 seconds on a stop watch feels like a tremendously long time, so any (demonstrable) pause will IMHO do when timing the delay is left to LHO.

[blackshoe]

Back in the day, my regular partner was a nurse. We had a director call at our table where the opponents insisted that I had hesitated for much longer than ten seconds after a skip bid. My partner sided with the opps. On the way home after the game I asked her about that. "I'm a nurse," she said, "I know what ten seconds is." So I gave her my watch, with the stopwatch function. She timed my "ten seconds". I took the watch back and timed hers. Mine was 11, hers was 15. B-)

[barmar]

Probably because you know the Beatles trick, she didn't. :)

 

But if she thinks that 10 seconds is 15 seconds, and she thought you hesitated even longer than that, then it was presumably closer to 20 seconds. Your argument would only have worked out if she underestimated how long 10 seconds is. I suspect that's more common -- 10 seconds is a pretty long time, especially when you're not doing anything (my DVR has a 7-second instand replay, it always goes back further than I really wanted).

[bluejak]

I sing to myself:

 

Happy birthday to you,

happy birthday to you,

happy birthday dear David,

happy birthday to you.

 

That takes ten seconds so long as do not use a long drawn out David.

 

If I know the opponents' names I usually sing it to one of them.

[mjj29]

I sing to myself:

 

The normal procedure when I display the stop card is that I read the directions on the back slowly after making my bid while holding it out in front of me. About half way through this, my LHO makes their call. I then wait another couple of seconds to try and make the point, but by then the auction has usually got back to me, so I put the stop card away again.

[blackshoe]

"Skip bid, please wait." <make skip bid> <0.43 second pause, followed by call> "Do you agree your partner has broken tempo?" "Huh? Of course not!" Presumably this will be followed by a futile director call.

 

I don't play in high level bridge, I'm concerned with what the LOLs at clubs do. They break tempo, they make extraneous remarks, they use inferences gained from such actions by their partner. They don't do it on purpose, they do it because they're obliviots. I suppose I could crusade to change them all, but it doesn't seem like a very good use of my time and effort. Yes, perhaps some cheats slip through the cracks. That's life.

[axman]

The normal procedure when I display the stop card is that I read the directions on the back slowly after making my bid while holding it out in front of me. About half way through this, my LHO makes their call. I then wait another couple of seconds to try and make the point, but by then the auction has usually got back to me, so I put the stop card away again.

 

The truth of the matter is that BA’s do not encourage players to develop good tempo [consistent tempo of bidding, of play [not necessarily the same pace] that covers about 90% of one’s actions]. Actually, my impression is that BA’s vigorously avoid encouraging the development of good tempo ostensibly on the premise that if nasty L16/L12 penalties are not enough incentive, then becoming the bad guy messenger is not worth it. To be clear, teaching players this skill is an important function of the Bridge Authority and it is remiss in neglecting this important duty.

 

Now, what appears to be unnoticed is that the value of the skip bid pause is not realized unless most players have good tempo. Think about it- if players have bad tempo then what is to be gained by providing a consistent pause? The best I can think of is a false sense of accomplishment.

 

 

 

I have actively studied tempo and its effects for nearly 20 years- and have thereby come to many conclusions. To a great extent, typically the dominate proportion of time of the auction is spent trying to figure out what partner’s UI means. I have found that ‘a speed pass’ by dealer can add 3 minutes to an auction because partner has so much UI to process from it….-and this gives dealer so much UI to process from his partner- thereby feeding off itself. There is much to be gained from a mandatory pause prior to the auction. I personally have started thousands of rounds 5 minutes and more behind and invariably finish early by using the technique of not making my first call until all players [at least] appear ready [there is a recent thread about the speed bidder OOT that didn’t wait for the dealer to inspect their hand]. Since everybody has less [unauthorized] data to process they are focusing only on authorized data [being considerably less difficult to process] they are better focused to play well, and at a considerably faster pace.

 

Does mjj play bridge? No, he reads little cards while Rome burns. To wit- the skip bid demand destroys the benefits of the skip bid pause.

[jallerton]

I sing to myself:

 

Happy birthday to you,

happy birthday to you,

happy birthday dear David,

happy birthday to you.

 

That takes ten seconds so long as do not use a long drawn out David.

 

OK, but what do you do on the other 364 days of the year?

[Jeremy69A]

If I know the opponents' names I usually sing it to one of them.

 

Would this not be showing demonstrable indifference to the stop regulation? If you play against me I would rather you called quickly after a "stop" than sang to me! B-)

 

 

I played in a ACBL national for over a week recently in all sorts of games and came across no home grown player who used the stop card or said "skip bid" but

a. if you did they generally respected it

b. I found no problems with their tempo at all (which, to be honest, surprised me a bit)

[gnasher]

In case anyone is ever tempted to serenade me at the bridge table, I'd like to make it clear that it would be a breach of law 74A2.

[JLOGIC]

 

I don't play in high level bridge, I'm concerned with what the LOLs at clubs do. They break tempo, they make extraneous remarks, they use inferences gained from such actions by their partner. They don't do it on purpose, they do it because they're obliviots. I suppose I could crusade to change them all, but it doesn't seem like a very good use of my time and effort. Yes, perhaps some cheats slip through the cracks. That's life.

 

Amen

[barmar]

I suppose I could crusade to change them all, but it doesn't seem like a very good use of my time and effort. Yes, perhaps some cheats slip through the cracks. That's life.

The old aphorism about trying to teach pigs to sing comes to mind.