What is your first bid here?

[Phil]

2N.

[jmcw]

A very likely rebid from partner over 1♠ is 2♦. I'm not sure how you propose to RKC in hearts after that.

 

A 2♦ rebid solves my "black" suit problem for 0 losers.

 

I will GF with 3♣ now.

[Flem72]

My preferred sstructure would start 3C, Bergen weak raise concealing a big splinter, 13+ HCP. O's rebid tells the values tale: If 3H (min), then 4D completes the splinter description, requesting cues (unfortunate that the suit we wonder about is C: none will be forthcoming, so R will have to start with 4S hoping to hear 5C, Roman style). If 3D (inv), asking range, then 3N = D splinter. If 4H (the nuts--or a long H suit, shape), RKCB for a grand.

 

Regards and Happy Trails,

 

Scott Needham

Boulder, Colorado, USA

[MrAce]

A 2♦ rebid solves my "black" suit problem for 0 losers.

 

I will GF with 3♣ now.

 

But he did not say 2♦ will create problems in solving losers, he asked how will u set ♥ as trumps and ask RKCB later.

 

You bid 3♣, ok, pd bids 3NT or 3♠ or 4♦. Now what ? You have everything ready for a good date with a hot chick who is waiting u, except u dunno how to reach her because u lost her number.

 

If u dont have 3♥ over 2♦ as forcing available, or any other bid in your pdship that shows an immediate ♥ forcing hand, maybe starting 1♠ is not as good as it sounds.

[jogs]

2♠ is unfortunately not available for me since we play it 9-11 6 cards nat and invitation. Having said that, i'd start with 1♠ but i can't say i have disagreements with other replies.

.

 

You should consider only playing 2♠ that way after a minor suit opening.

 

1♥ - 2♠ is spades/hearts, strong spades, or notrump hand with spades. Think this is semi-standard with better players playing SAYC or 2/1. 3 way bid to be clarified in the next round.

[daveharty]

...maybe starting 1♠ is not as good as it sounds.

Right on. It seems like the "space savings" of 1S vs. 2NT are most illusory, since your second turn is likely to be spent on a noninformative bid to establish a game force, and you won't be supporting hearts until your third turn. Agree with mtvesuvius that WE are the captain of this auction, and we just need to extract the correct information from partner to set the contract; but if this is the case, why would we bother introducing spades naturally? It's not as if that's going to help partner reevaluate his hand later in the auction, which is a primary reason to introduce Strain B into an auction when we already know we're playing in Strain A. Several people have mentioned that it would be reasonable to immediately ask for keycards (I agree), but J2NT is clearly better than that because we don't give up our ability to ask, plus we have the chance of finding out something immediately useful (as long as your followups are well-defined, as The Hog mentioned).

[MrAce]

You should consider only playing 2♠ that way after a minor suit opening.

 

1♥ - 2♠ is spades/hearts, strong spades, or notrump hand with spades. Think this is semi-standard with better players playing SAYC or 2/1. 3 way bid to be clarified in the next round.

 

No thank you. Those so called better players are playing this lately while i am playing 9-11 for almost 30 years.

 

Fit showing jump shifts were invented for a reason, and that was for better judgement in competitive auctions. Not in auctions where u will draw the map of your hand and give it to opponents if what u end up will be just game. Of course i am sure u will advocate fsj with this monster hand as well as an 8 hcp and in order to contrast them, u will add some relays into it...No but thank you for the offer anyway.

[mike777]

2nt bergen here but in any case asking pard to describe hand

[TWO4BRIDGE]

MP all red

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sakq32hq983djca84&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=1hp]133|200[/hv]

Folks ( including me ) have mentioned 2NT! as Jacoby .

What if 2S! is used as "Jacoby" ( and says nothing about Spades )?

What are the follow-ups ?

 

I saw one method [ by FromageGB in my thread from last December --- http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/43335-anything-is-better-than-jac2nt/page__st__20 ) starting as follows:

 

1H - 2S!

??

.. 2NT! = I have no shortage, do you ? ( I thought this was interesting ) .

.. 3C! = ♣ shortage

.. 3D! = ♦ shortage

.. 3H! = ♠ shortage

Edited June 27, 2011 by TWO4BRIDGE

[Onedown]

My first concern is to show partner I have 4 card support and a gf hand. I'm not going to cloud the auction by showing my spades first.

As others have said the hand is too good for a splinter so I'll happily bid (modified) J2N.

 

Agree with 2NT for a few reasons. I am more interested in finding out about partners hand than giving information away about my own hand. Why would I tell the opps what NOT to lead, and bidding a ♠ just might do that.

 

Once I hear partners response to 2NT I will have a much better picture of where we are going. The only problem I may have is whether to bid on if partner bids 4♥over my 2NT bid, and I doubt he will be bidding 3♣or 3 [diamonds.

 

And yes, this hand is much too good for a splinter...

[han]

2C. I'm too strong to describe my hand, I'm going to give partner room to describe hers.

[Free]

I'll start with 2♣, the hand is too strong to splinter immediately, so depending on agreements you can use some GF bid with or without fit. I don't play Jacoby 2NT, so I only have 2♣ GF relay left. I don't like 1♠ because I can control the auction a lot better after 1♥-2♣ than after 1♥-1♠.

[whereagles]

Now add the rest of my comment "I'm not going to cloud the auction by showing my spades first."

I don't see a good reason to misdescribe my hand and after not starting with a 4 card spade raise it could be difficult to persuade partner that I have this hand. I like to keep him in the loop, not in the dark.

 

You are reasoning it the wrong way. Your hand is so independant that your duties are to either make a decision right away (4NT) or gather information (by bidding 2NT or 1♠ or whatnot) to later on make a decision.

 

It's an error to try and pass the decision-making to partner when you can do that yourself. It is also wrong to make decisions when one should be describing one's hand instead. That is, however, all very human (people tend to have dominant/dominated personalities) but in bridge this is, in fact, the #1 source of mix-ups in natural bidding systems.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Now add the rest of my comment "I'm not going to cloud the auction by showing my spades first."

I don't see a good reason to misdescribe my hand and after not starting with a 4 card spade raise it could be difficult to persuade partner that I have this hand. I like to keep him in the loop, not in the dark.

I think Jilly meant: "... and after NOT starting with a 4 card HEART raise..."

[jillybean]

I think Jilly meant: "... and after NOT starting with a 4 card HEART raise..."

yes, thanks ♥

[TWO4BRIDGE]

MP all red

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sakq32hq983djca84&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=1hp]133|200[/hv]

Let's look at Responder's hand again.

Responder surmises that slam looks good

even if Opener is a MINIMUM but HAS "shortness" ( most likely in a black suit )....

because "shortness opposite other shortness" yields lots of tricks with a good fit.

 

However, if he has NO shortness and a MINIMUM, you need to know about controls ( especially in clubs ).

If you use Jac2NT or 2S! ( Jacoby for Hts ) , you don't want to hear the "dreaded" 4H reply with no shortness and a minimum.

 

You need to use a "modified Jacoby" where the minimum reply w/o shortness is NOT 4H.... but a lower bid on the 3-level .

 

That way you can find out via low-level cuebids if Opener has the ♣K or not.

 

If opener shows NO shortness but has the ♣K AND at least 2 key cards, then slam is a good bet.

 

If he has THREE key cards AND the ♣K, bid the grand !

[jmcw]

But he did not say 2♦ will create problems in solving losers, he asked how will u set ♥ as trumps and ask RKCB later.

 

You bid 3♣, ok, pd bids 3NT or 3♠ or 4♦. Now what ? You have everything ready for a good date with a hot chick who is waiting u, except u dunno how to reach her because u lost her number.

 

If u dont have 3♥ over 2♦ as forcing available, or any other bid in your pdship that shows an immediate ♥ forcing hand, maybe starting 1♠ is not as good as it sounds.

 

If the auction proceeds as you suggest it may turn out badly. Certainly, it becomes almost impossible to set ♥ and RKC with clarity.

 

However, I'm not convinced J2N can solve the ♣ problem unless there is a well defined (better than mine) set of agreements that "slows" opener down when he has a balanced minimum.

 

Many of the replies favoring J2N do do not explore this problem and leave the impression they are going to J2N with ALL GF hand containing 4+ trumps.

 

Personally, I play J2N with quasi balanced hands with 6+ controls, by that definition the responding hand has 3 flaws, a stiff ♦, a good trick source ♠, and only 5 controls. My "correct" system bids (if I hide the ♠ suit) are 4♣ showing 4/5 controls and 4+ trumps, or 2♠ ambiguous splinter.

 

A couple of replies want to start with a GF 2♣, I've never heard of this with 4+ trumps, 2/1 for me has always a maximum of 3 card support for the major.

[rhm]

Personally, I play J2N with quasi balanced hands with 6+ controls, by that definition the responding hand has 3 flaws, a stiff ♦, a good trick source ♠, and only 5 controls.

 

A couple of replies want to start with a GF 2♣, I've never heard of this with 4+ trumps, 2/1 for me has always a maximum of 3 card support for the major.

Well this is because the combination of playing 2/1 and J2N is common. Playing 2/1, however, I always felt J2N somewhat redundant in a well oiled partnership.

If the J2N bidder is the captain, there is no urgent necessity to relay information. like your trump length or whether you are balanced to opener (you know).

And if you start with a lower GF 2♣ you can hear opener's natural rebid and set ♥ as trumps on the next round. On the way you might get useful information, like opener having six ♥ or there might be an alternate 4-4 fit, which may turn out superior, for example.

Of course a lot depends how you structure your continuation after a GF 2♣, but I have trouble seeing why this should put you at a disadvantage compared to those starting with 2NT. Starting lower often has advantages.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[cherdano]

Well this is because the combination of playing 2/1 and J2N is common. Playing 2/1, however, I always felt J2N somewhat redundant in a well oiled partnership.

If the J2N bidder is the captain, there is no urgent necessity to relay information. like your trump length or whether you are balanced to opener (you know).

And if you start with a lower GF 2♣ you can hear opener's natural rebid and set ♥ as trumps on the next round. On the way you might get useful information, like opener having six ♥ or there might be an alternate 4-4 fit, which may turn out superior, for example.

Of course a lot depends how you structure your continuation after a GF 2♣, but I have trouble seeing why this should put you at a disadvantage compared to those starting with 2NT. Starting lower often has advantages.

I don't think I quite agree (there is a lot of value in 2♣ showing clubs, or a balanced hand or clubs), but I have a lot of sympathy for this view. Playing 2♣ as clubs-or-balanced, with relay-style followups, it seems to work pretty well to also include very strong hands with 4-card support. Then 2NT can be a minimalish game forcing raise with 4 trumps, and 2♣ denies 4 hearts unless responder is planning to completely take control over the auction via the relays.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I guess we'll never see Opener's hand on this deal.... like so many threads here.

[Phil]

....Playing 2♣ as clubs-or-balanced, with relay-style followups, it seems to work pretty well to also include very strong hands with 4-card support. ...and 2♣ denies 4 hearts unless responder is planning to completely take control over the auction via the relays.

 

Agree with all of this.

 

I think the relevant part is that this hand wants to be in charge. Whether or not we want to do this via a forcing raise, or 2♣, is really a function of partnership agreement, and how we can best elicit information from partner.

[jillybean]

I don't think I quite agree (there is a lot of value in 2♣ showing clubs, or a balanced hand or clubs), but I have a lot of sympathy for this view. Playing 2♣ as clubs-or-balanced, with relay-style followups, it seems to work pretty well to also include very strong hands with 4-card support. Then 2NT can be a minimalish game forcing raise with 4 trumps, and 2♣ denies 4 hearts unless responder is planning to completely take control over the auction via the relays.

 

I like this. I have played 2C/1M as balanced gf or clubs for a long time, despite a lot of raised eye brows at the club.

I'm not completely sure of what you mean by the relay-style followups. Could you please explain.

[OleBerg]

 

LOL @ the idea of 2♠ as a SJS with 4 card support.

 

Enable "Satire-detector".

[MrAce]

If the auction proceeds as you suggest it may turn out badly. Certainly, it becomes almost impossible to set ♥ and RKC with clarity.

 

However, I'm not convinced J2N can solve the ♣ problem unless there is a well defined (better than mine) set of agreements that "slows" opener down when he has a balanced minimum.

 

Many of the replies favoring J2N do do not explore this problem and leave the impression they are going to J2N with ALL GF hand containing 4+ trumps.

 

Personally, I play J2N with quasi balanced hands with 6+ controls, by that definition the responding hand has 3 flaws, a stiff ♦, a good trick source ♠, and only 5 controls. My "correct" system bids (if I hide the ♠ suit) are 4♣ showing 4/5 controls and 4+ trumps, or 2♠ ambiguous splinter.

 

A couple of replies want to start with a GF 2♣, I've never heard of this with 4+ trumps, 2/1 for me has always a maximum of 3 card support for the major.

 

You have valid points.

 

To be honest, if u look at my response, i am one of those who started with 1♠. But the more i think the less i like it. In fact after thinking more, i am more convinced 2♣ looks much better to me.

 

The reason i started 1♠ was,

 

a- i play 3 ♥ later forcing, but it is something that i hate, which i did myself here, to reply a logic seeking question with my personal system agreement/treatment.

 

b- When holding AKQxx ♠ or any other suit for that matter,when we bid it first, it is always a risk that pd will almost ALWAYS refuse all slam attempts with xx(x) of this suit. However that didnt scare me because i really dont need pd's approval for slam in this hand.

 

On the other hand give pd hands like xx KJxxx KQxx Qx, a 2 ♣ starter will make his slam more times than others.

 

I like starting 2♣ for other reasons than those who choosed it in the topic to be honest. In this hand we have a solidish side suit, a good 4 card fit and a stiff ♦. All we want is a non ♣ lead to improve our chances and ask keycards.

[jillybean]

I like this. I have played 2C/1M as balanced gf or clubs for a long time, despite a lot of raised eye brows at the club.

I'm not completely sure of what you mean by the relay-style followups. Could you please explain.

Who else plays relay style follow ups to 1M:2C? Could someone explain their system please?