Minor suits over 15-17 NT

[Antrax]

Partner and I got around to discussing our system. We currently play transfers to majors only, with 1NT-2♠ being an undefined auction (and 2NT a natural invite). The ideas we're familiar with are 2♠ as minor-suit stayman (requiring responder with at least 5-5 in the minors), 2♠ as a transfer to 3♣ and 2NT as a transfer to 3♦ (and then a natural invite goes through stayman) or 2♠ as transfer to "the minors", meaning opener rebids 3♣ and responder can correct to 3♦ which is a signoff.

Which of these, if any, is recommended for a non-expert partnership? Are there other recommended treatments for minor suits and/or the 2♠ response to a 1NT opening?

[jjbrr]

Personally I like one of two options, and I play one or the other with almost all my partners.

 

First: 2S is a transfer to clubs, 2NT is a transfer to D or a weak hand with 5-5+ in the minors. Opener bids the in-between step to say he doesn't like the minor.

 

Second: 2S is either a balanced hand with invitational values or a hand with clubs. Opener bids 2NT with a minimum and responder passes with the invitational balanced hand or bids at the 3-level to show hands with clubs (3C being a weak hand). With a maximum, opener bids 3C and responder passes with weak hand with clubs and bids again with either the balanced hand or with strong club hands. I play 2NT as a transfer to D or the weak 5-5 minors hand with this as well.

 

For the sake of completion, I also play 3C is a puppet stayman with an ambiguous 3D response; I play 3D as 5+5+ minors and GF (opener bids 3H/3S to show C/D support respectively; 3M shows a stiff in that major, 3 in the other major, and 5-4 or 4-5 in the minors with GF+ strength.

 

ETA: I would consider these agreements to be for sort of advanced partnerships, but in general I think it's easy enough to learn that it's fine, and also I think they're good agreements, so they're worth the extra work, imo.

 

Another late edit, sorry. To clarify: in the second version where 2S is either clubs or balanced invite, the balanced invite denies a 4-card Major. With a 4-card major you bid stayman.

Edited June 23, 2011 by jjbrr

[semeai]

If you want to keep it simple, I'd recommend leaving 2NT alone as you don't want to worry about forgetting. 2♠ to clubs and 3♣ to diamonds is fine. You do lose the diamond invite hands but they really don't come up that often.

 

If you want, put both minors weak in 2♠ too and have opener bid 2NT without good clubs and 3♣ with good clubs, so 3♦ over 2NT is to play. This loses the ability to play 1N-2S;2N-3D as diamond shortness, so your choice.

 

If you're okay with remembering 2NT isn't natural, what jjbrr has is good.

[gwnn]

I always thought 1NT-2♠ range ask was cute (as described nicely by jjbrr above).

[KamalK]

First: 2S is a transfer to clubs, 2NT is a transfer to D or a weak hand with 5-5+ in the minors. Opener bids the in-between step to say he doesn't like the minor.

 

Dont quite understand this. How is the transfer completed? Can you explain please?

 

Thank you.

 

Kamal

[blackshoe]

If he's playing it the same way I do, then 1NT-2♠-3♣ says "I like clubs" - usually three to an honor or better. 1NT-2♠-2NT says "I don't like clubs" - so a doubleton or 3 small. Responder can pass or bid 3♣ to play. Similarly, 1NT-2NT-3♦ says "I like diamonds", and 1NT-2NT-3♣ says "I don't like diamonds". A 1NT opener who doesn't like diamonds probably likes clubs, so one advantage to this method is that responder, with a weak 5-5 in the minors, can transfer to diamonds and pass whichever rebid opener makes, and expect to be in the right suit, at least.

[Antrax]

I don't worry about the memory strain regarding 2NT, but I never understood what happens when opener has 4-4 in the majors, when the auction goes 1NT-2♣, 2♥-2NT, how does opener know whether responder has four spades or whether stayman was just a way to invite.

[Bbradley62]

I still like something I've played for a couple of decades:

1NT-2♠ is a relay to 3♣, showing one minor or the other

... if responder has a weak hand with clubs, he passes

... if responder has a weak hand with diamonds, he corrects to 3♦

... if responder has a slam invite hand with clubs, he bids 3♥

... if responder has a slam invite hand with diamonds, he bids 3♠.

 

1N-2N/3♣/3♦ are all natural and game invitational.

[jjbrr]

Dont quite understand this. How is the transfer completed? Can you explain please?

 

Thank you.

 

Kamal

 

Hi Kamal.

 

In the context of a structure with 4-suit transfers, the bids look something like this:

 

1NT-2♠: 2♠ shows any hand with long clubs that would at least prefer suggesting ♣ as strain instead of NT. Opener can either say he likes clubs or he doesn't like clubs. The distinction is up to you and your partner; I like partner to say "I like clubs" with Hxx and an otherwise normal 1NT opener (because when I transfer to clubs I almost always have a 6-card suit, and Hxx opposite a 6-card suit frequently produces at least 5 tricks).

 

After 2♠ showing ♣: 2NT says opener has worse than like Hxx. You might agree something like Ax or Kx is enough to say "I like your suit" in this spot. If opener and responder have less than standard values for a game and a suit that doesn't fit very well, we might suffer too many losers. If they fit well, even with a HCP total well below 26, they could easily have 9 tricks given the good fit in the minor. It's all a matter of judgment.

 

After 2NT showing ♦: all the same rules apply. Again, I'd like to emphasize this point: you don't get a game bonus for having 26 combined HCP. You get a game bonus for bidding and making game. If you can diagnose that you have a strong fit likely to take 5 or 6 tricks, you can bid 3NT on lighter combined HCP.

 

Does that help?

[KamalK]

In the context of a structure with 4-suit transfers, the bids look something like this:

Does that help?

 

JJ thank you very much for detailed expl. We've tried but often realised we shd be in 2NT. Minors giving problems :)

 

I guess I will have to 'construct' a hand and once again see how to go about it as per your expl.

 

Thanks again. Kamal

[KamalK]

I still like something I've played for a couple of decades:

1NT-2♠ is a relay to 3♣, showing one minor or the other

... if responder has a weak hand with clubs, he passes

... if responder has a weak hand with diamonds, he corrects to 3♦

... if responder has a slam invite hand with clubs, he bids 3♥

... if responder has a slam invite hand with diamonds, he bids 3♠.

 

1N-2N/3♣/3♦ are all natural and game invitational.

 

Thanks, I suppose this is easier for us at Intermediate/Advancing Inter level.

 

Now I have 2 further queries. We often mess up even after having established trumps in minor suits. We either play in 3 level and miss 5 or play in 5 missing slam. Or often blindly bid 5/6. So then :

 

1. 3♥/ 3♠ is not cue bids, right? Just a slam showing interest? How do you take it forward after 3♥/3♠?

 

2. Playing reg BW what next? and playing RKC1430 whats next?

 

Sorry, I know these are too many queries but glad this topic came up as we seem lost in minor games/slams.

 

If you suggest can post a fresh topic if this thread gets messed with the somewhat unrelated queries.

 

Thanks. Kamal

[hotShot]

Thanks, I suppose this is easier for us at Intermediate/Advancing Inter level.

 

Now I have 2 further queries. We often mess up even after having established trumps in minor suits. We either play in 3 level and miss 5 or play in 5 missing slam. Or often blindly bid 5/6. So then :

 

 

Seems you are leaving the 'Beginner' space, so I suggest you look into 'Minorwood'.

Using 4m to ask about aces and trump Q, makes it easier to stop in 5m.

 

And remember asking about aces is to avoid bidding a slam, if 2 keycards are missing, you only use it after you decided to try a slam.

Using it to investigate the slam chances is an abuse.

[gwnn]

I don't worry about the memory strain regarding 2NT, but I never understood what happens when opener has 4-4 in the majors, when the auction goes 1NT-2♣, 2♥-2NT, how does opener know whether responder has four spades or whether stayman was just a way to invite.

The way most people play it:

 

responder's 2NT denies 4 spades. he bids 2♠ (forcing 1 round) when he has 4 spades.

[Antrax]

Oh. Is wrongsiding the 4-4 spade fits worth having all four suit transfers?

[gwnn]

I think some people (even top pairs? not sure) just don't invite on balanced hands anymore. Too much information given to defenders, too little upside of being able to stop in 2NT.

 

Also I think there are other people who play (1NT-2♣; 2♥-) 2♠ as NF, invitational only, with 3NT still showing spades as with no 4SF. I think being able to stop in 2M is super awesome, even if played from the weak hand.

[mgoetze]

1. 3♥/ 3♠ is not cue bids, right? Just a slam showing interest? How do you take it forward after 3♥/3♠?

 

I think most people play 3♥/3♠ after a minor suit transfer as showing shortness. You don't necessarily need to be slam interested yet, it can also help to decide whether 3NT or 5m is right (if opener has lots of honors opposite the shortness, 3NT is likely to be better, whereas a bare ace or nothing at all would tend to indicate 5m). If opener prefers the minor he should only bid 4m though to allow a slam-interested responder to cuebid. Similarily, if responder bids on after opener bids 3NT, it's a cuebidding sequence.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

There are 12 cases :

-- Long Cl

-- Long Diam

-- Both minors ( 4+/5 either way )

 

----- weak

----- strong

----- invitational

 

The following structure covers all bases, but may not be the best:

 

Long Cl

1 -- weak [ 1NT - 2NT! ( forces 3C! ), 3C! - pass ]

2 -- strong [ 1NT - 2NT! ( forces 3C! ) , 3H/3S advance cue for long Cl as trump ]

3 -- invitational [ 1NT - 3C ]

 

Long Diam

4 -- weak [ 1NT - 2S! ( MSS ) ]

5 -- strong [ 1NT - 2NT! ( forces 3C! ) - 3D! = long Diam ]

6 -- invitational ( 1NT - 3D ]

 

Both Minors ( 4+/5 either way )

7 -- accept Cl

a) weak [ 1NT - 2S! ( MSS ) ]

b) strong [ ditto ]

c) invitational [ 1NT - 2C, 2any - 2NT! = no 4 card Major;

may

be 4+/5 in minors ]

8 -- accept Diam

a) weak [ 1NT - 2S ( MSS ) ]

b) strong [ ditto ]

c) invitational [ 1NT - 2C, 2any - 2NT! = no 4 card Major;

may

be 4+/5 in minors ]

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

MSS = Minor Suit Stayman

[Vampyr]

 

Long Cl

3 -- invitational [ 1NT - 3C ]

 

Long Diam

6 -- invitational ( 1NT - 3D ]

 

 

These aren't necessary if you are playing 4-suit transfers. You just transfer and bid 3NT if partner likes it. If your suit is solid or semi-solid with an entry, just bid 3NT initially unless you are interested in a slam.

[helene_t]

If you don't play 4suit-transfers, then presumably 1NT-3m is invitational and the only way to show a strong hand with one or both minors is to go via stayman, or via 2♠. It does get a little murky:

1NT-1♣

2♥-3♦*

can now be four spades and four+ diamonds, but also it could be 5-5 or 5-4 minors, or diamonds only. It helps a little to play

1NT-1♣

2♥-2♠*

as forcing, but on the other hand, as gwnn says, it is awesome to be able to stop in 2♠.

You can of course put some strong minor suit hands into the 2♠ response (I am assuming the 2♠ usually means a weak hand with one or both** minors). Maybe something like

1NT-2♠

3♣-3M*

showing 5-5 minors and shortness in the suit bid, just to take some of the strong hands out of Stayman. Not sure this is really worth discussing in a non-expert partnership, I suppose this rant mainly serves to show that if you want to bid the strong minor suit hands effectively you are best off playing four suit transfers.

 

** Yes, if you play 1NT-2♠ as weak with one minor you might as well agree that it can also be weak with both minors. Opener bids 3♣ with club preference or no preference, responder can still correct to 3♦. With diamond preference, opener responds 2NT.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

These aren't necessary if you are playing 4-suit transfers. You just transfer and bid 3NT if partner likes it. If your suit is solid or semi-solid with an entry, just bid 3NT initially unless you are interested in a slam.

Thx.... but,how to you handle the "both minors" cases when playing 4-suit transfers, ?

[Vampyr]

Thx.... but,how to you handle the "both minors" cases when playing 4-suit transfers, ?

Weak has been discussed already. With strong hands you can transfer to clubs and then bid diamonds, and/or use 3-level bids in minors or majors. I use 3♦ as 5+♣, 5+♦ slam interest. Not that it ever comes up. I also play 3♥ and 3♠ to show fragments, with shortness in the other major and 4-5/5-4 in the minors.

[KamalK]

I think most people play 3♥/3♠ after a minor suit transfer as showing shortness. You don't necessarily need to be slam interested yet, it can also help to decide whether 3NT or 5m is right (if opener has lots of honors opposite the shortness, 3NT is likely to be better, whereas a bare ace or nothing at all would tend to indicate 5m). If opener prefers the minor he should only bid 4m though to allow a slam-interested responder to cuebid. Similarily, if responder bids on after opener bids 3NT, it's a cuebidding sequence.

 

Need to look up how to get this right. Another poster also suggested 'minorwood'. Guess all this needs a lot of work. Thanks again.

[KamalK]

I think most people play 3♥/3♠ after a minor suit transfer as showing shortness. You don't necessarily need to be slam interested yet, it can also help to decide whether 3NT or 5m is right (if opener has lots of honors opposite the shortness, 3NT is likely to be better, whereas a bare ace or nothing at all would tend to indicate 5m). If opener prefers the minor he should only bid 4m though to allow a slam-interested responder to cuebid. Similarily, if responder bids on after opener bids 3NT, it's a cuebidding sequence.

 

Need to look up how to get this right. Another poster also suggested 'minorwood'. Guess all this needs a lot of work. Thanks again.

[mgoetze]

Need to look up how to get this right. Another poster also suggested 'minorwood'. Guess all this needs a lot of work. Thanks again.

 

There's nothing special to the cuebidding on this sequence, it's the same as if you had bid 1m-3M(splinter) or 1m-2m(inverted)-3M or 1♣(strong)-2m-3m or whatever.

 

"Minorwood" means playing 4 of the minor as RKCB when a minor is agreed. If you play Minorwood, then it should be on after a transfer to a minor, e.g. 1NT-2♠-3♣-4♣ would be minorwood.

 

"Kickback" (or possibly "redwood") means playing 4♦ as RKCB when clubs are agreed and 4♥ as RKCB when diamonds are agreed. If you play Kickback, then it should be on after a transfer to a minor.

 

However, I would not advise agreeing either of these only for this particular sequence. Just play whatever cuebidding style you always play.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I think I should refrain from posting in the B/I.

It is costing me too much in "Reputation" ( as if I give a rat's ass about that ).

 

I thought this topic was a very good one, because " covering all the bases " for Responder's minor suit holdings is a difficult one.... and one that I have agonized over for a long time.

 

My Minor suit structure over 1NT with most of my pard's.... sucks.

 

Most Structures will address certain aspects such as "long minor suits" but omit the "both suits" cases... or some such.

 

I've noticed many take the easy way out with minor holdings by just searching for 3NT -- as the OP said -- and miss slams.

 

I finally took the time to list a structure that would cover "all the bases" without going into too much detail ( such as follow-ups ) but I see that I have failed in the eyes of the "up/down" police.... who IMO have a very condescending attitude toward the actual B & I's .