Are there any advantage to this system?

[SimonFa]

I normally play a variant on SAYC with my regular partner but he is leaving the area next week and it looks like I will be playing a lot of Acol, mostly Benji.

 

Anyway, last night I ended up with a partner who played the following:

 

1NT=12-14HCP

Red suit transfers

2NT = transfer to minors

2♠=11/12 HCP

 

I had never heard of this 2♠ convention and needless to say I got dealt an 11/12HCP opposite partner and forgot it and we missed a 3NT game for a bottom. Obviously that won't happen again now but.....

 

The more I have think about it the more I don't like it; why would you have the 2NT and 2♠this way round? I can see two (at least) good reasons against it:

 

(1) its not natural and therefore likely to be forgotten in the heat of battle as I proved (I'm a great believer in Ron Klinger's points in his book Improve Your Bridge Memory that you shouldn't put yourself under pressure when you don't need to and that you should keep thinks as simple as possible)and;

 

(2) if you are going be playing in 2 or 3NT why give ops an opportunity to enter the bidding with 2NT or make a lead directing dbl?

 

Have I missed something obvious that makes this a good convention to play?

 

Regards,

 

Simon

[Cyberyeti]

Doesn't seem to have anything to commend it, also doesn't give you any space to show any minor suit holdings over the transfer.

[paulg]

I think you are playing with an enlightened soul. Those I know who play this have the 2♠ bid as PRECISELY 11 points. They all love it and never ask me what I think of it.

[Flameous]

There is some sense to it, but not exactly like that.

Point is for 2♠ to be Range ask, but it can include weak minor or slammish minor and bal slam invites.

2NT then is both minors, any strength.

 

Split like this, it makes a lot of sense to have your invites go through 2♠.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

an option is to combine the meaning of 2NT and 2S, the hand bidding 2S is interest

eiter in min or max, or wants to sign of in 3 of a minor.

 

That way you can keep the natural meaning of direct 3C / 3D bids, and you also have

freeed up 2NT.

 

Having said this - also possible is to play 2S as transfer to clubs, 3C as transfer

to diamonds, and 2NT as natural.

A direct jump to 3D is showing an single suiter with inv. strength.

 

This way - at least 2S will ring a bell, since it is a impossible bid, and 3C is at least

a jump, the jump may or may not work as a wakeup call.

 

And finally - if you just play occassionally giving up on minor suit transfers works

as well.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Vampyr]

Those I know who play this have the 2♠ bid as PRECISELY 11 points.

 

Same here.

[MickyB]

I think you are playing with an enlightened soul. Those I know who play this have the 2♠ bid as PRECISELY 11 points. They all love it and never ask me what I think of it.

 

2S = 11, 2N = 12. System on over a 1NT overcall.

[paulg]

System on over a 1NT overcall.

You are getting into the realms of advanced club bidding now.

[helene_t]

Yeah Flameous is right, the convention works like this:

 

1NT-2♠

2NT*-3bananas**

 

*minimum

**4-cards up the line, slamish

 

1NT-2♠

3bananas***

 

***maximum, bidding 4-cards up the line just in case responder is slamish

[semeai]

Playing 2♠ as a "range ask" does have advantages, as pointed out by others. Some expert pairs, including Meckstroth and Rodwell, use this. I think they have opener bid 2NT with a hand that would decline an invite and 3♣ with a hand that would accept an invite.

 

The most obvious advantages:

1) Instead of bidding 1NT-4NT;Pass and playing 4NT with a balanced slam invite opposite a minimum, the auction is 1NT-2♠;2NT-3NT and you're still just in 3NT.

2) Extra space to explore with balanced invites (e.g. as helene describes) and/or extra bids if opener always bids 3♣ with an acceptance. For example, you can now decide on any meanings you want for 1NT-2♠;anything-3♦,3♥,3♠, as well as for 1NT-2NT. This being the B/I forum, let's leave it at that.

 

Of course letting the opponents double 2♠ is a hefty downside, as is memory strain.

 

I hadn't heard of playing 2♠ as a weak invite (i.e. 11 pts opposite a 12-14 NT) and 2NT as a strong invite (i.e. 12 points opposite a 12-14 NT). :P In case there are any unclear on why this is funny: it shows an over-reliance on numerical point count not to be able to break a 12-14 range into a "good" half and a "bad" half.

[nigel_k]

Obviously it doesn't gain unless you put other hands types into the 2♠ bid, as others have suggested. But if you play that opener bids 2NT with a minimum and 3♣ with a maximum then the 2♠ bid can include, for example, a weak hand with either minor plus some strong hands. I prefer this to four suit transfers and bidding Stayman with a balanced invite. In fact I'd rather just never invite if Stayman is the only way to do it.

[Free]

I like 2♠ as range ask, but it's more complicated than just "11-12HCP". The point is that you can combine more hands into this structure, which is not done apparently.

 

Compare:

1NT-2♠ = invite or bananas (= forcing)

1NT-2NT = all kinds of bananas (= forcing)

opposite

1NT-2♠ = all kinds of bananas (= forcing)

1NT-2NT = invite (not forcing, no bananas)

 

In the first structure you can include many more hands. Most of the time, weak hands with ♣ are included in the 2♠ response, because opener will rebid 2NT (min) or 3♣ (max) and responder can always signoff in 3♣. Any other bid shows some strong hand (for example 3M = slam invite with 6+♣ and 0-1M). If you have an invite, then you'll pass a 2NT rebid, and bid 3NT if opener shows maximum.

 

This can easily be combined with 2NT as a transfer to ♦ (or weak with both minors) after which opener will bid 3♣ without fit (so responder can pass with both minors or bid 3♦ with ♦ only) or 3♦ with fit. Also, responder can rebid 3♥ or higher to show various strong hands (similar: 3M = slam invite with 6+♦ and 0-1M).

[Gerben42]

I agree with Free... points schmoints. Invitational is about more than HCP. Otherwise this is a good system which I also play when I play a strong NT:

 

2♣ = Stayman

2red = Transfers

2♠ = range check or minor 1-suiter (weak or slammish)

--> 2NT = minimum

--> 3♣ = maximum

 

2NT = both minors (to play 3m, or GF)

3m = invite to 3NT with long suit

3M = 5431-convention

[Zelandakh]

It sounds like you are in the UK. The most common form of this convention is Baron 2S. Here 2S is an invite (2NT or 4NT bid) or a semi-balanced slam try. Other variations include bundling minor suit Stayman, or various other weak and strong minor-oriented hands. If you do add extra hands then it is an excellent bid giving you more space to play with just as other transfer bids do, if you do not then there are only disadvantages.

[SimonFa]

Thanks everyone, some interesting thoughts. I'm still not convinced that using 2♠as an invite and 2NT for minors as a basic system has any benefits at all, however I can see that the more advanced versions have some merit, especially when trying to figure out how many bananas we can make.

 

Regards,

 

Simon